Celtic Heroes

The Official Forum for Celtic Heroes, the 3D MMORPG for iOS and Android Devices

Re: Systems for dom clans

#41
ryandragon wrote:One of the biggest issue with clans is that the server is zero sum based instead of instanced. Hence players are forced to enter Dom clans instead of clans with integrity and fairness.

World of Warcraft's current loot system is fantastic.

1) built in loot distribution. No arguments there.
2) loot drop system is tracked per toon, and every time no loot is dropped for the toon the chance to get loot for next drop is increased gradually until 100%.
3) toon choose role for drop before encounter. Loot drops according to the role chosen.

The biggest advantage I can see is that it the only reason anyone gets behind in loot is not attending raids.

The best thing that can happen to loot is for the devs to take over loot distribution. Or for Dom clans to have a transparent system that adopts part of the WoW system.

That sounds awesome. Would love for loot distribution to be similar to that of WoWs. The devs should be in total control over how the loot distribution works, because the players get greedy when it’s put into their own hands and it causes nothing but drama... it hurts the game.

I know that game is dungeon based, so how does loot distribution work for Open World Bosses in WoW? Or does it work the same as dungeon loot distribution.
Zkills, Proud general of the beloved KodiakReavers of Belenus, the G.O.A.T clan

Professor/Detective Zkills, op mage of Epona, chieftain of KodiakReavers. Server banned for doing PvP in arena.

Can you do the impossible?
Celtic Heroes Ultimate Challenge

Re: Systems for dom clans

#42
There is without a doubt that changing the loot system will be both a radical change, as well as a quantum leap for raiding in CH.

There are instances where lock groups are meaningless* :
1) Dino
2) BT
3) Gele
4) Proteus
5) Mordris
6) Necro

*Except for lock battles, since you need more than a group to kill them.

These particular fights can have the new loot system implemented, meaning it's a "raid loot system" instead of the current "group loot system". This will render the current lock fights obsolete.

Since we have to "zone" into tower levels anyway, there is actually very little reason why we cannot have instanced fight encounters to replace the lock system.

This new system will spell the end of lock battles and Dom clans, but fuel a new clan race to down as many bosses as the clans can go , similar to WoW, instead.

Boss camping will be unimportant, except for EDLs and Hrungjir.

The only true open boss is Dino, which can be considered to be the ultimate lock boss.

For systems that can help current Dom clans, a third party web, neutral and transparent, can help with personal loot point system where only the top numbers can, and MUST, roll. The ones that win have their points wiped and this gives some form of assurance that attendance will reward loot eventually.

Re: Systems for dom clans

#43
ryandragon wrote:One of the biggest issue with clans is that the server is zero sum based instead of instanced. Hence players are forced to enter Dom clans instead of clans with integrity and fairness.

World of Warcraft's current loot system is fantastic.

1) built in loot distribution. No arguments there.
2) loot drop system is tracked per toon, and every time no loot is dropped for the toon the chance to get loot for next drop is increased gradually until 100%.
3) toon choose role for drop before encounter. Loot drops according to the role chosen.

The biggest advantage I can see is that it the only reason anyone gets behind in loot is not attending raids.

The best thing that can happen to loot is for the devs to take over loot distribution. Or for Dom clans to have a transparent system that adopts part of the WoW system.



How do you attend dino when you can't even stay there without getting teleported? O_o

Does WoW not account for participation? And if so how does it account for it?

Celtic Heroes is a small game, every person who attends is needed. WoW just has thousands of players in a server so it doesn't matter if you leech.

WoW is dungeon based isn't it? Its based off of a certain amount of players in a group (about 40) that enter dungeons and thus have to not slack off. With Celtic Heroes, anyone can walk in an area and attack a boss. All these changes to make this work would make Celtic Heroes so unrecognizable it would be crazy....might as well make a new game...wait....
Ashley A - 222 Mage - Novalis - Mabon
000000000000000 - 216 Rogue - Novalis - Mabon
Azona - 210 Druid - Novalis - Mabon

Then some Epona toons yo

Re: Systems for dom clans

#45
Skerwald wrote:Dkp takes a lot of time._. If you do it don't be surprised by how depressing it is to manage it.


Nova adopted recently a system that Ronin uses. It requires minimal management as a program counts the dkp values for you.

For example:

180 4 kill on Ashley A

It then reads that and allocates 4 DKP to your total. Then DKP people evaluate all the records for the day which is very fast and makes sure they are accurate and no duplicates then publishes it.
Ashley A - 222 Mage - Novalis - Mabon
000000000000000 - 216 Rogue - Novalis - Mabon
Azona - 210 Druid - Novalis - Mabon

Then some Epona toons yo

Re: Systems for dom clans

#46
Zkills wrote:The system I suggested would allow for everyone who participated to have a chance at a drop. If everyone contributes to the raid then everyone should have a shot at the loot that boss drops. The argument people make of “no no no, the hardest working players need to be rewarded” is not a strong one, this is a game not a job. Many people do not care to treat this game like a Job, some might even play to escape their jobs lmao. People love going to a boss knowing they have a chance of directly obtaining a drop, it’s more satisfying to get loot that way, versus getting made up points they then use to “buy” stuff. It’s how Epona gets such high attendances. I guarantee you almost every server is capable of getting the numbers Epona gets. Why can’t they ever reach those numbers consistently though? Because they’re using flawed systems that do not work well with this game. I said you’d be surprised to see how many skip out on bosses, hiding out on alts when bosses are up, logging off right before one is due, simply reading the message saying “meh” then going back to watching TV... it’s a lot worse on servers using dkp than it is for a server like Epona lol. How do I know? Because I used to do it (when I was farming for regen weapons when the unity update first dropped I would flat out ignore boss calls and continue farming because farming for a regen bow was more worth while then going to a boss and getting nothing) and I would always talk to players who did it as well lmao, and Epona always has higher numbers. I bet a lot of people reading this are guilty of it as well lol.

You guys sound like a bunch of greedy game developers lol. A player spends so much time going for endgame, and when he reaches endgame the developers slap them with a pay wall saying “if you want to access endgame content then you’re gonna have to pay a price” (*cough cough* bungie and Destiny). Same thing with you guys. Players spend an eternity trying to reach endgame, and when they do they’re met with a wall known as dominance that says “hold up there, if you want access to endgame content you’re gonna have to pay us with your time and work for us”... why?


The incentive to keep logging onto bosses in Epona is because you can sell the gear if you don't want to use it (assuming the player wins the roll). They're not logging on to help clan members (I'm speaking generally as some will log in to help with a boss just to be nice when they don't need anything from that boss). And I'm not sure why the more active players wouldn't have the better gear as that's the point of obtaining boss drops - it helps to kill the boss faster. If you have someone that's going to consistently be at the Joe Bob beast and the Susie Smith scary salamander monster, why wouldn't you want that gear on those people as opposed to player 42 that's going to just pop in occasionally?

Of course, at the end of the day, no system is perfect. And we can find pros and cons for each system.

With that being said, I think the bigger issue is the extremely loooooooooong roll out between raid mobs and the best gear being so rare to drop. I mean you can only have the will to log in to kill mordris waiting for that fabled poison dmg helm (random example) before the idea of gouging your eyes out sounds more fun than showing up to mordris. I think crafting would help solve this.
Zyz 220 Druid
Noah Fences 220 Rogue

Re: Systems for dom clans

#47
Zyz wrote:
Zkills wrote:The system I suggested would allow for everyone who participated to have a chance at a drop. If everyone contributes to the raid then everyone should have a shot at the loot that boss drops. The argument people make of “no no no, the hardest working players need to be rewarded” is not a strong one, this is a game not a job. Many people do not care to treat this game like a Job, some might even play to escape their jobs lmao. People love going to a boss knowing they have a chance of directly obtaining a drop, it’s more satisfying to get loot that way, versus getting made up points they then use to “buy” stuff. It’s how Epona gets such high attendances. I guarantee you almost every server is capable of getting the numbers Epona gets. Why can’t they ever reach those numbers consistently though? Because they’re using flawed systems that do not work well with this game. I said you’d be surprised to see how many skip out on bosses, hiding out on alts when bosses are up, logging off right before one is due, simply reading the message saying “meh” then going back to watching TV... it’s a lot worse on servers using dkp than it is for a server like Epona lol. How do I know? Because I used to do it (when I was farming for regen weapons when the unity update first dropped I would flat out ignore boss calls and continue farming because farming for a regen bow was more worth while then going to a boss and getting nothing) and I would always talk to players who did it as well lmao, and Epona always has higher numbers. I bet a lot of people reading this are guilty of it as well lol.

You guys sound like a bunch of greedy game developers lol. A player spends so much time going for endgame, and when he reaches endgame the developers slap them with a pay wall saying “if you want to access endgame content then you’re gonna have to pay a price” (*cough cough* bungie and Destiny). Same thing with you guys. Players spend an eternity trying to reach endgame, and when they do they’re met with a wall known as dominance that says “hold up there, if you want access to endgame content you’re gonna have to pay us with your time and work for us”... why?


The incentive to keep logging onto bosses in Epona is because you can sell the gear if you don't want to use it (assuming the player wins the roll). They're not logging on to help clan members (I'm speaking generally as some will log in to help with a boss just to be nice when they don't need anything from that boss). And I'm not sure why the more active players wouldn't have the better gear as that's the point of obtaining boss drops - it helps to kill the boss faster. If you have someone that's going to consistently be at the Joe Bob beast and the Susie Smith scary salamander monster, why wouldn't you want that gear on those people as opposed to player 42 that's going to just pop in occasionally?

Of course, at the end of the day, no system is perfect. And we can find pros and cons for each system.

With that being said, I think the bigger issue is the extremely loooooooooong roll out between raid mobs and the best gear being so rare to drop. I mean you can only have the will to log in to kill mordris waiting for that fabled poison dmg helm (random example) before the idea of gouging your eyes out sounds more fun than showing up to mordris. I think crafting would help solve this.

Being able to sell gear is apart of the satisfaction of winning a drop. You won a drop from a raid and now it’s completely yours to do whatever you want with it. Build a collection of your winnings, use it, sell it, trade it, save it for an alt, or lend/give it to a friend in need. It’s so much more satisfying than getting a drop that’s considered “clan property” and expected to be used to help further expand the clans power over everyone else. Players become nothing but property to that clan and are being used by the leaders to expand their power over the server. If you decide to leave with the gear and join an opposing clan then so be it, they’ll start to treat you like your work never even mattered in first place which shows how they really think about the individual players. That’s the reality of dominance. MMORPGs are always about player and personal progression and having the freedom to achieve that progression, but dominance takes the player out and replaces it with clan and then strips away that freedom and puts restrictions in place. that to me is a problem.

The main problem isn’t the drop rates or the spawn rates. Like I said if that were the case then Epona wouldn’t be thriving. The main issue is with what players decide to do with those drops.
Zkills, Proud general of the beloved KodiakReavers of Belenus, the G.O.A.T clan

Professor/Detective Zkills, op mage of Epona, chieftain of KodiakReavers. Server banned for doing PvP in arena.

Can you do the impossible?
Celtic Heroes Ultimate Challenge

Re: Systems for dom clans

#48
Ash A wrote:
How do you attend dino when you can't even stay there without getting teleported? O_o

Does WoW not account for participation? And if so how does it account for it?

Celtic Heroes is a small game, every person who attends is needed. WoW just has thousands of players in a server so it doesn't matter if you leech.

WoW is dungeon based isn't it? Its based off of a certain amount of players in a group (about 40) that enter dungeons and thus have to not slack off. With Celtic Heroes, anyone can walk in an area and attack a boss. All these changes to make this work would make Celtic Heroes so unrecognizable it would be crazy....might as well make a new game...wait....


Wow has open world bosses far earlier than CH ever did, ad has forty man groups.

To achieve the same, CH can implement linked groups.

Both will be affected via range so the extras for Dino will not get any loot. Unfortunately.

Re: Systems for dom clans

#49
Ash A wrote:
Skerwald wrote:Dkp takes a lot of time._. If you do it don't be surprised by how depressing it is to manage it.


Nova adopted recently a system that Ronin uses. It requires minimal management as a program counts the dkp values for you.

For example:

180 4 kill on Ashley A

It then reads that and allocates 4 DKP to your total. Then DKP people evaluate all the records for the day which is very fast and makes sure they are accurate and no duplicates then publishes it.

I was the one who made that and I noticed you guys used pretty similar dkp system as pointed out earlier so shoutout to you otherwise it would have gone unnoticed. I will go a little more in depth here. For other clans the technicals are rather simple to the point that any novice programmer could create something similar. It really comes down to string parsing and HTTP requests.

We both use http://webdkp.com to store our points / gear and Line as our messenger app. The program takes an input that is directly copy and pasted from the desktop version of line which adds a bunch of timestamps and other stuff that is easily filtered out until a list like the following is created

Code: Select all

215 5 kill on player1, player2
Snorri 6 campkill on player3
level 155-180 on player1
gele 6 kill on player4, player1, player3

At this point it is easily parsed and tallied up to form a list like this

Code: Select all

player 1, 10
player2, 15
player3, 70
player4, 120

We also use an "alias" system so it's easier to type some names and filter out typos. Next the counter double checks everything is correct than this is inputted into a program that directly awards all of the points on WebDKP. As far as I know WebDKP does not have an API, but the internal requests the site sends can be viewed with chrome and it's really simple.

Send a POST to webdkp.com/login with credentials, save the cookies, send a post to webdkp.com/Admin/CreateAward/ with a few parameters and you're done. If I remember correctly these endpoints even reply with JSON. I know Line messenger also offers an API that (I think) allows you to read messages without rate limits which could be used to create a fully automated system where the only upkeep is fixing typos.

Systems like this can greatly reduce the management time spent with a DKP system. Yeah nobody wants to type out all the names, but the aliases make it very easy. Mabon's transition was really quick too which impressed me, they all got the format down within a day. It ends up taking me 15-20 minutes to count and update a weeks worth of points.

Re: Systems for dom clans

#50
At this point we have to ask ourselves, does VR care to ever fix how the game works? My guess is probably not, a easier system would make game much less pay to play and less income for the staff. More likely to get cooking haste elixirs first before adding anything new to the combat part of game.

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