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Fire vs Ice dps (not the typical fire vs ice thread)

Posted: Sat Oct 27, 2018 9:36 pm
by Kuro
Fire
- "Better for leveling"
- "Evades matter less"
- "Higher pure dps"
- Good for 185/195 EDL

Ice
- Can aoe nuke mobs
- Good for 205/210 EDL
- Bulkier energy shield (?) due to ice magic
- Has time to kite when leveling/step away for sigils to kick in when bosing
- Better for pvp (?)

Questions:
1) Does the current CDR gear affect skill rotation to the point that fire loses more dps from skill overlaps compared to ice?
2) Since both builds now use shards/firebolt at eg, and have access to CDR (ice benefitting more), are both builds really on par for dps (considering skill overlaps/deaths/running from mob to mob etc) ?
3) Does bloodleaf CDR ring stack with necro brace CDR?

Been a fire mage for leveling but now have the option to choose between fire or ice. I love casting firebolt and being able to cast frequently but not to the point where I have to keep pressing skills, hotswap, drink pots, use pet,etc and have all those skills overlap. Since both fire and ice mages use firebolt, I decided to consider both. Any input would be greatly appreciated.

Re: Fire vs Ice dps (not the typical fire vs ice thread)

Posted: Sat Oct 27, 2018 10:23 pm
by Dark Kitty
CDR gear doesn’t impact an ice mage’s dps more than that of a fire mage. Like if you were to double ice blast and firestorm’s cast rate, their dps would be almost double (not exactly doubt because cast rate doesn’t change). If anything it affects fire mages’ fire bolt more than ice shards because fire bolt is insta cast meaning the cdr gear would be in effect all the time (assuming you’re casting fire bold right when it gets off cooldown).

Re: Fire vs Ice dps (not the typical fire vs ice thread)

Posted: Sat Oct 27, 2018 10:57 pm
by Kuro
Dark Kitty wrote:CDR gear doesn’t impact an ice mage’s dps more than that of a fire mage. Like if you were to double ice blast and firestorm’s cast rate, their dps would be almost double (not exactly doubt because cast rate doesn’t change). If anything it affects fire mages’ fire bolt more than ice shards because fire bolt is insta cast meaning the cdr gear would be in effect all the time (assuming you’re casting fire bold right when it gets off cooldown).


CDR Doesn't affect rate of casting sure but since both fire/ice values for necral brand are 30% CDR, won't ice benefit more from CDR since their cooldown times are longer? 30% of 7 seconds is much less than 30% of 12 seconds for example

Re: Fire vs Ice dps (not the typical fire vs ice thread)

Posted: Sat Oct 27, 2018 11:08 pm
by Dark Kitty
Kuro wrote:
Dark Kitty wrote:CDR gear doesn’t impact an ice mage’s dps more than that of a fire mage. Like if you were to double ice blast and firestorm’s cast rate, their dps would be almost double (not exactly doubt because cast rate doesn’t change). If anything it affects fire mages’ fire bolt more than ice shards because fire bolt is insta cast meaning the cdr gear would be in effect all the time (assuming you’re casting fire bold right when it gets off cooldown).


CDR Doesn't affect rate of casting sure but since both fire/ice values for necral brand are 30% CDR, won't ice benefit more from CDR since their cooldown times are longer? 30% of 7 seconds is much less than 30% of 12 seconds for example

Let’s omit cast times for a second. Let’s say that ice blast’s cooldown is 100 seconds while firestorm is 50. The damage of ice blast is 2x greater than firestorm and we assume no resistances. Now in the time that it takes for you to cast ice blast you would cast 2 firestorm skills. Means that their damage output is the same.

Now let’s apply a 50% cooldown reduction. Ice blast’s cooldown is 50 seconds while firestorm firestorm is 25 seconds. Again, in the time that it takes for ice blast to be off cooldown you would have casted 2 firestorm skills, meaning they still have the same damage output.

Re: Fire vs Ice dps (not the typical fire vs ice thread)

Posted: Sat Oct 27, 2018 11:16 pm
by Kuro
Dark Kitty wrote:
Kuro wrote:
Dark Kitty wrote:CDR gear doesn’t impact an ice mage’s dps more than that of a fire mage. Like if you were to double ice blast and firestorm’s cast rate, their dps would be almost double (not exactly doubt because cast rate doesn’t change). If anything it affects fire mages’ fire bolt more than ice shards because fire bolt is insta cast meaning the cdr gear would be in effect all the time (assuming you’re casting fire bold right when it gets off cooldown).


CDR Doesn't affect rate of casting sure but since both fire/ice values for necral brand are 30% CDR, won't ice benefit more from CDR since their cooldown times are longer? 30% of 7 seconds is much less than 30% of 12 seconds for example

Let’s omit cast times for a second. Let’s say that ice blast’s cooldown is 100 seconds while firestorm is 50. The damage of ice blast is 2x greater than firestorm and we assume no resistances. Now in the time that it takes for you to cast ice blast you would cast 2 firestorm skills. Means that their damage output is the same.

Now let’s apply a 50% cooldown reduction. Ice blast’s cooldown is 50 seconds while firestorm firestorm is 25 seconds. Again, in the time that it takes for ice blast to be off cooldown you would have casted 2 firestorm skills, meaning they still have the same damage output.


It makes sense now. Thank you for the clarification! What about skill overlaps though?

Re: Fire vs Ice dps (not the typical fire vs ice thread)

Posted: Sat Oct 27, 2018 11:42 pm
by Shivahh
Dark Kitty wrote:
Kuro wrote:
Dark Kitty wrote:CDR gear doesn’t impact an ice mage’s dps more than that of a fire mage. Like if you were to double ice blast and firestorm’s cast rate, their dps would be almost double (not exactly doubt because cast rate doesn’t change). If anything it affects fire mages’ fire bolt more than ice shards because fire bolt is insta cast meaning the cdr gear would be in effect all the time (assuming you’re casting fire bold right when it gets off cooldown).


CDR Doesn't affect rate of casting sure but since both fire/ice values for necral brand are 30% CDR, won't ice benefit more from CDR since their cooldown times are longer? 30% of 7 seconds is much less than 30% of 12 seconds for example

Now let’s apply a 50% cooldown reduction. Ice blast’s cooldown is 50 seconds while firestorm firestorm is 25 seconds. Again, in the time that it takes for ice blast to be off cooldown you would have casted 2 firestorm skills, meaning they still have the same damage output.

Except whether there's 0 resistance or not fluctuation comes into place so there's no consistency.
Its sort of a gamble:
Firestorm>2 low hits, 1high1low, 2 high
Iceblast> 1 high, 1 low
Meaning you have a better shot with outputting more damage using fire which has one more positive output.

Re: Fire vs Ice dps (not the typical fire vs ice thread)

Posted: Sat Oct 27, 2018 11:52 pm
by Kuro
Shivahh wrote:
Dark Kitty wrote:
Kuro wrote:
CDR Doesn't affect rate of casting sure but since both fire/ice values for necral brand are 30% CDR, won't ice benefit more from CDR since their cooldown times are longer? 30% of 7 seconds is much less than 30% of 12 seconds for example

Now let’s apply a 50% cooldown reduction. Ice blast’s cooldown is 50 seconds while firestorm firestorm is 25 seconds. Again, in the time that it takes for ice blast to be off cooldown you would have casted 2 firestorm skills, meaning they still have the same damage output.

Except whether there's 0 resistance or not fluctuation comes into place so there's no consistency.
Its sort of a gamble:
Firestorm>2 low hits, 1high1low, 2 high
Iceblast> 1 high, 1 low
Meaning you have a better shot with outputting more damage using fire which has one more positive output.


I think the issue of fluctuation could be countered with the addition of critical skills. Crits on ice skills are massive. It's already been established that fire is more consistent dps than ice but that doesn't mean fire has more dps than ice over time.

Re: Fire vs Ice dps (not the typical fire vs ice thread)

Posted: Sun Oct 28, 2018 12:01 am
by Dark Kitty
Kuro wrote:
Shivahh wrote:
Dark Kitty wrote:Now let’s apply a 50% cooldown reduction. Ice blast’s cooldown is 50 seconds while firestorm firestorm is 25 seconds. Again, in the time that it takes for ice blast to be off cooldown you would have casted 2 firestorm skills, meaning they still have the same damage output.

Except whether there's 0 resistance or not fluctuation comes into place so there's no consistency.
Its sort of a gamble:
Firestorm>2 low hits, 1high1low, 2 high
Iceblast> 1 high, 1 low
Meaning you have a better shot with outputting more damage using fire which has one more positive output.


I think the issue of fluctuation could be countered with the addition of critical skills. Crits on ice skills are massive. It's already been established that fire is more consistent dps than ice but that doesn't mean fire has more dps than ice over time.

Same logic with what I mentioned previously. Assuming no resistances and ice blast deals 2x more damage than firestorm and has 2x the cooldown time than that of firestorm, critical skills would even out over time. Ice blast’s crit would give you 2x more damage than that of a firestorm’s crit but it would crit half as often as firestorm, making dps over time even. Same logic can be applied to evades but that’s effy because we would be assuming that ice skills have the same evade chance as fire skills and I’m not sure if that’s true.

Re: Fire vs Ice dps (not the typical fire vs ice thread)

Posted: Sun Oct 28, 2018 1:56 am
by Furyion
Wooo a nice topic.

I actually did this in my video version of my mage guide.

Both fire and ice aren't the best dps. Hybrid is, hands down.

But lets say between fire and ice...

Short - Fire is better, by alot

Long - In 2013, fire was slightly better then ice, but it was close enough that you could have debates on it. Then after some unknown patch that made attunes instant and firebolt instant, ice became worse through an indirect nerf(firebolt instant, while ice got nothing for that).

Cooldown reduction is better for FIRE.

Lets say this, 50% more dps on 50 or 100 is still 50% right? Good.
But cooldown reduction is only COOLDOWN. So the side with less cast time(fire) has a larger dps gain.

Heres the equation - 1 - (([Original Skill Cooldown * (1-Percent Reduction)] + Cast Time)) / (Original Skill Cooldown+Cast Time))
This will give you the actual reduction number, compare that to what you have on your gear.

Example with Ice Shards - 40% reduction
1 - (([15*(1-0.4)]+1))/(15+1))
1- ((9+1)/15+1)
1- 0.625
0.375
37.5% DPS gain on ice shards

Re: Fire vs Ice dps (not the typical fire vs ice thread)

Posted: Sun Oct 28, 2018 2:05 am
by Dark Kitty
Furyion got it. I just wanted to point out that it's true only with fire bolt vs ice shards as fire bolt is instant cast. Not so much with firestorm vs ice blast as firestorm still has a cast time about half of ice blast.