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Re: Ranger Vs Rogue!

#61
The thing is, the average ranger is nothing compared to other classes in terms of power, yes bolas is the only decent support skill we have but that one skill should not define us.

Light heal has to be in range to be used... For an end game ranger whos mainly str, it does about 800. Dps over an 800 heal is valued more.

Rangers should have 2 paths to choose from, a support or dps. Druids can be an awesome healer and an even better dps due to their skills. Warriors have tank skills and dps skills as well.
What do we have? This is where I am saying you are delusional. All the raid gear you can get will not undermine the fact that we are a broken class and are forgotten, only thing that is keeping us alive is bolas, i am saying this as a ranger who has played for 3 years and i would say we are the worst class at the moment.
Again, I agree with these statements ^^
Clan: WolfGang
Chaz - Level 185+ Ranger - Full DL
Inferno19 - Level 127+ Mage
Sneakystrike - Level 195+ Rogue - Full DL
EpIcHeaLzz - Level 137+ Druid
Tankerzz - Level 127+ Warrior (PvP Beast: Invincible Veteran)

World: Mabon

Re: Ranger Vs Rogue!

#62
The thing is, the average ranger is nothing compared to other classes in terms of power, yes bolas is the only decent support skill we have but that one skill should not define us.

Light heal has to be in range to be used... For an end game ranger whos mainly str, it does about 800. Dps over an 800 heal is valued more.

Rangers should have 2 paths to choose from, a support or dps. Druids can be an awesome healer and an even better dps due to their skills. Warriors have tank skills and dps skills as well.
What do we have? This is where I am saying you are delusional. All the raid gear you can get will not undermine the fact that we are a broken class and are forgotten, only thing that is keeping us alive is bolas, i am saying this as a ranger who has played for 3 years and i would say we are the worst class at the moment.
I think you are overestimating other classes, and underestimating rangers, but I see what you are saying.
I have been around for nearly 4 years now (I think, started playing a month or two after CH first came out), and ranger was my first choice of character, and still is today. I have a character of every other class, but I feel like they are just not worth leveling very high since I can just about do what every class specializes in with my ranger. (Besides my druid which I went ahead and got to 180 in order to assist the clan in raid boss fights)

Re: Ranger Vs Rogue!

#63
Which is exactly why they are useless in groups other than bolas. They can do anything on their own, but when it comes to a clan, where there is many of each class which excel in the mix rangers have, rangers don't shine at all. It's basically a solo class and like I said before they shouldn't force a build on a class. AND since this game is so clan/cooperation based for gear and bossing, rangers are useless other than leveling. And whats the point of leveling if you won't be as useful as other classes on bosses?
This is completely inaccurate.

In my own experience in Seed, I think that Crom would be weeks behind where it is today without rangers cooperating with their clan: When the carrow/fingals/sewers first came out, and our clan was struggling to defeat the 150 wyrm boss. After quite a few failed attemps, I told the clan, "Can I just bolas him and have the tank run?"*. Of course the clan was reluctant as we only had 2 rangers at the time, including me. Eventually we got tired of failure and tried bolasing... and it worked. From there every boss was killed by bolasing it.
And that's how one skill on rangers have impacted boss fights.
*I don't claim to be the first person to come up with the idea of bolasing bosses, I was just the first person to suggest the idea on Crom

Furthermore: I don't know how many rangers use entangle, but let me spell out exactly how much it helps on a raid boss.
Take Mordis for example, she does about 1.5k damage a hit to our tanks. And she attacks fast. I haven't counted how many hits she does in 30 seconds, but its at least 1 hit a second, maybe more. That's 30*1500, 45000 damage. Entangle cuts that in half: 27500 damage that Mordis does not inflict on the tank.
Looking again at the paragraph above, I'm thinking the damage is probably a little unrealistic, I'm probably making a bad guess at the attack speed. But, my point remains, it still cuts the raid boss's damage in half, giving the druids some respite.

Further, Furthermore: Sharpen Weapons
Someone mentioned earlier that Sharpen Weapons pales in comparison to poison weapon. They are somewhat right, and also outrageously wrong.
Solo, sharpen weapons sucks. For me, it adds 102 damage to my attacks. It isn't really even worth casting in battle, as in the time it takes to cast, I could do a single auto hit for more damage than it would give me. However, if a group is attuned to how sharpen weapons works, you can increase the groups damage overall by about 800 a hit, and that is increased even more by a hate potion.
To show what I mean:
1 group, 1 ranger, sharpen weapons adds 100, each player attacks approximately every 2 seconds. (the attack speed is just a middle number, rouges would be hitting much closer to every 1 second, along with rangers, so the number below would really be much higher.)
Take sharpen weapon damage addition: 100, multiply by 8 for people in group: 800, and 800 every 2 seconds for 2 minutes = 48000 damage added by sharpen weapons per cast... Which leads me to continue comparing it to poison weaps. Poison has to recast per person to use it on, it might add 2 times, maybe up to 3 times the actual damage done by sharpen on a mob, but it has to be cast 8 times if it were to be used by everyone in a group, every time a rouge wants to cast poison weaps, it costs them an auto attack, or 2 or 3 on haste, on the mob they are attacking. With rangers, its cast once, then cast again in 2 minutes, where rouges would lose a great deal of their damage if they were poisoning everyone's weaps.

Further, Further, Furthermore: Someone said that rangers are just a debuff of all classes thrown in a blender.... again, highly inaccurate (and hurtful).
Rangers don't need to heal as much as druids, because they won't be healing the tank, they would be healing themselves or other dps.
Rangers don't need lures as they can simply buff the damage done by everyone through their person, not the add.
Rangers don't need armor since the mobs don't even get close. (Bolas/Camo)
But Rangers do deal tons of damage. It is highly dependent on who exactly you are comparing to who, and how well geared they are, but rangers on Crom can easily hold their own.

All classes have their disadvantages, and advantages, but you really can't say that any class would not be missed if it were taken out. Every class plays a role in Celtic Heroes, and they all must play their role, otherwise- everything would be much, much tougher on the other classes, probably even impossible.

For starters, I did say the only useful thing about rangers was bolas. Which still you pointed out.

As for entangle, I don't really know about the skill, but does it really slow down an enemies attacks by half and you are able to keep it up for an entire minute?

Sharpen Weps and Poison weapon comparison: You should try reading the thread before posting in the future. Allow me to quote myself, with an extra bit added that I answered later.

Note: We are assuming this rogue has no regard for his damage lost, and is a pure support rogue. A support ranger willing to lose dps like the rogue wouldn't be be able to be as helpful. There is the possibility that a ranger could hop from the 3-4 average groups on bosses, but groups are usually full with classes corresponding to roles. Rogues do not need to be in a group to cast poison wep on a player.
Lololololol.

Mid-class armor. Druids Shield of Bark gives them second most armor.

Jack of all trades? If that was actually useful there wouldn't be other classes. Support skills are poo.

Light Heal: Druids have 3 skills which can directly heal druids win, no need for rangers there.

Sharpen Weapons: Ok the average 50/50 sharp weps is like 120 damage? That's a 960 damage add on in an 8 man group, so in actuality its 480 added damage and no more.

Then there's poison weapon. I took Biteys website Skill calculator here: http://celticheroes.blogspot.com/2014/0 ... lator.html and entered Levvys stats, link here from a recent post: http://celtic-heroes.com/forum/viewtopi ... 51&t=58145 I assumed his cunning and dagger abilities were maxed out.

The poison weapon output was 163 poison damage. That'sa full 163 damage unless you are facing the odd mob with posion resist. You can cast it on other people and if you cast it on 8 others it would add up to 1304 direct poison damage. Lol. And we aren't even inputting in the adds he could have and the add he obviously has of +5 from his dl gear to poison wep.

Btw, poison weps cooldown is 10 seconds, and lasts for 120 seconds. So you should be able to cast it on 12 people and keep it up, or 11 people assuming the cast time takes some time to cast. Thats enough for the whole main dps group and extra back up dps for rangers etc.

Someone mentioned that they can replace warriors as tanks. Warriors and Rogues are never missing, if you want to lose lots of dps that ranger already don't have and put them into vit be my guest. All classes except for mages due to their lack of armor can tank with this logic.

And then of course rogues beat rangers when it comes to dps.
Furthermore, who said druids are only capable of healing tanks? They can heal themselves just as rangers can ha.
Self buff themselves instead of lures? Mages have attunements which will always be better than any other damage buff PLUS they have lures.
Don't need armor? Bolas for leveling sucks nuts, time consuming having to cast, run away. Just use some pots like every other class has to in exchange for better endgame material/usefulness.

Lets compare a level 200 ranger and a level 200 rogue. Both are equipped with godly bracelets, except the rogue has much better rings. A grand and Royal shadowstrike can probably beat any other royal+grand combination a ranger could ever have. Rogues have two skills which deal lots of damage and are unavoidable, which is awesome for bosses. So don't even talk about ranger dps if there is a class that deals more damage.

As you can see, there is a replacement class for each of rangers abilities, except for bolas and possibly entangle.

Rangers are backup dps, backup healers, backup buffers, backup agro tanks(using bolas), and their only position in which they have a main role is bolas.
Rogue 166 - Ghostbro
Ranger 126 - Acebow
Warrior 85 - Ghostwar

Soldiersofjah
SULIS

Re: Ranger Vs Rogue!

#64
I started writing yet another paragraph to defend rangers... but then I realized a few things.
1: You have neither a 190 ranger, or a rouge to be discussing this.
2: No 190 ranger would bother with skill rings if possible, we stick to damage gear only.... (and now im back defending rangers, bah.)
3: You have your own mindset, and you are free to your own opinions.
If you dislike the idea of a ranger so much... don't play one, spend your time leveling some other class.

Re: Ranger Vs Rogue!

#65
I started writing yet another paragraph to defend rangers... but then I realized a few things.
1: You have neither a 190 ranger, or a rouge( Rogue) to be discussing this.
2: No 190 ranger would bother with skill rings if possible, we stick to damage gear only.... (and now im back defending rangers, bah.)
3: You have your own mindset, and you are free to your own opinions.
If you dislike the idea of a ranger so much... don't play one, spend your time leveling some other class.
I agree with ur last point, but the time consumed lvling a ranger acts as a stop to people who want to delete the character. And, why r we comparing rangers and the colour red here? Rangers aint that bad!

Re: Ranger Vs Rogue!

#66
I started writing yet another paragraph to defend rangers... but then I realized a few things.
1: You have neither a 190 ranger, or a rouge to be discussing this.
2: No 190 ranger would bother with skill rings if possible, we stick to damage gear only.... (and now im back defending rangers, bah.)
3: You have your own mindset, and you are free to your own opinions.
If you dislike the idea of a ranger so much... don't play one, spend your time leveling some other class.
You're right.
Rogue 166 - Ghostbro
Ranger 126 - Acebow
Warrior 85 - Ghostwar

Soldiersofjah
SULIS

Re: Ranger Vs Rogue!

#67
I do have access to some of the best gear possible...
Would you clarify when you say that I'm delusional?

My experience with ranger is similar to Robax in a sense, I think we are a needed and fun class, I'm never happier in game then when I am on my ranger, unless I am using my rangers gear on my rogue :)

Robax I find your post quite misleading and full of misinformation, while I do share your enthusiasm for ranger and love the class I am not delusional, I see how much of a struggle it is to level ranger without the best gear.

Ranger is like every class, if you have all (or most) of the best items, your toon is awesome, so you think your class is awesome.

I also don't buy into the garbage that rangers are not needed, or they should be abolished, that's just nonsense as well.

Our so called support skills suck, bottom line. I don't need to see make believe numbers to be proven wrong, if u seriously think sharpen is good or entangle is good you have not been paying attention. Our best skill is bolas no doubt and it's very useful and fun as heck but outside of that meh to the rest of em, they pretty much all suck. Light heal? Go back to u2 or u2 that's when light heal was useful , now if u show me an end game ranger using light heal I just laugh at em. Defensive spikes? Pfffft wtf would anyone need a cloak type skill that hits entire group?
2: No 190 ranger would bother with skill rings if possible, we stick to damage gear only.... (and now im back defending rangers, bah.)

Doesn't that mean you disagree with everything you have been typing ?
Eliminater
Clan Avalon
http://avalon.guildlaunch.com/
Morrigan

ABOLISH TARGET LOCK
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Re: Ranger Vs Rogue!

#68
What I also mean is, if anyone have reached level 170 and are right now trying to solo train they most likely are seen hanging around the 1-2 stars. Fast but not as much xp, ja? So basically while we are hanging around 2 starts you see these rogues hanging around in the rooms themselves using lixes and restos when you do the same exact thing soloing the 4 stars as fast as you kill the 2 stars (about) and getting more xp.


Then, say that you have light heal, dex build, cool but not good enough. Those 4 stars hit around 1.5k in their best skill attack. Light heal does about 1500 itself. Not to mention the autos those mobs impact on you. So you can only make your death not as soon as rogues. Cool.

Bolas and camo you say? Well, unlike you, I actually want to kill the mob and not just "evade" the mob and auto it to death. So basically you're spending all this time with camo and bolas recasting that you barely have enough time to even damage the mob. Thus making you just tank it and use restos. So then you end up doing exactly what the rogues do but just not THAT many restos do to light heal.


You would be SURPRISED what damage a ranger can do when it is not bolasing, recasting camo, and casting (interrupted time to time) light heal. I had a druid oog me once because he was bored and I was shocked by how much more efficient it was.


So, we DO, do well in group trainings but the problem is there are many stupid/blind people out there that do not care about efficiency and would rather just spend more money for the "quickest" kills and end up ONLY wanting a warrior/rogue team. Leaving the rangers out of the fun. No wonder I did not level my ranger that high, I had no leveling incentive. People like rogues would say leveling is booorinnggg but when I level I suddenly feel "happy" because I have not been able to for so damn long.

Alright, to counter:

1: Rangers are made to be able to kill 3-4*s easy, rouges are not... have you ever seen a rouge train alone on 4*s? In Crom, that rarely happens. Mostly because that 1.5k damage that you say these mobs do, would nearly kill a rouge in one hit, plus its autos. Even if a rouge is spamming restores, it cant keep up unless it has its own druid... or a ranger in group.

2: Camo, bolas and light heal. While it takes time to cast these skills, its time better spent casting, than wasting time dying, or fighting multiple mobs at once.
Also, your sarcastic remark about light heal and evasions... No. Light heal is only interrupted by skills, not autos. So a light heal timed correctly is never interrupted, and its much better than spending 200 gold every time you need 1000 health (which is multiple times a mob depending on *s).

3: Druids and rangers training together isn't much more efficient than solo with a ranger... Unless of course that druid had a good deal of damage skills, then of course you'd be killing faster than normal, but the exp would remain about the same.

What level is your ranger/rouge Chelseam2?

I see rogues on Epona solo the whole room, easy. They have life steal now, the same, or a little worse than us and maybe a longer cooldown. If you add up the time it takes to entangle and bolas and run and wait for lag quiver to start shooting again then you would knoe 1/2 3/4 of the 15min appears to be just that if you were to do that with every mob. Lots of time saved.

The light heal...how LONG has it been since you played your ranger? Because in v2 I know for sure that the interruption rate of light heal was WAY less frequent (almost uninterruptible) than it is now. And technically it is 100 gold each time and if you're a serious player who wants to level an hour of farming will not hurt.

Remember I said oog druid? Well thats what happened. You also said,"if you do not like the ranger dont play the ranger." Well, you wanna be that way? You know why part of the reason many worlds cannot kill the necro? Of course you do, because its life steal gets too many hp back because the whole friggin world is full of rogues and warriors. Now if mages and druids had a 30% on energy costs for a skill or even 40% maybe we could kill necro because we would have plenty of mages. Maybe if we made rangers more buffed up and powerful then people would be making more rangers to kill necro. Those two classes can dps and stay out of range.

I played a game called,"Heroes vs Monsters" and it teaches you a good lesson about how important every class is. I would have a team of four people, and see here, if I were to have not one class in that four squad group I would of never been able to kill the bosses there. The druid had a skill that froze alll the undead. Good for adds and boss, ranger had entangle which stops the boss in its tracks and causes damage, mage did zip but summon the undead to help him out but good dps and the summoning was a good distraction. The warrior had a skill (forgot) that knocked down the boss for 5-6 seconds. Like shield bash.


So I know I am putting words in your mouth but basically you are telling me if people do not have the endurance to level a crappy ranger just to be useful for bosses and maybe support training then thats just wrong. Because people play games to have fun not become stressed out and try to level a ranger that is slow as hell. If we buff the classes then there will be more of them out there and thus easier to kill bosses. We buff mages with less energy, way less, but do not make their dps stronger (we would have complaints) maybe decrease spell evasion so they wont miss so much and rage quit. etc.
Ashley A - Mabon - Novalis - 222 - Mage
Azona - Mabon - Novalis - 209 - Druid
0x15 - Mabon - Novalis - 216 - Rogue

Allymia - Epona - 220 - Rogue
Fire Mage - Epona - 220 - Mage

Aethinry Donn - Belenus - 221 - Warrior
Dakara - Belenus - 200 - Mage

Re: Ranger Vs Rogue!

#69
By the way I am a low level ranger 172 full DL BUT I have talked to other high level rangers and have been told the same thing.


Also, you told us earlier that we are too low to understand but did we say this whole topic was on end-game rangers and rogues? No we meant low and high levels, so what counts now is that rangers low or high do not do that well and have to suffer.

btw elim good job on 200, cannot believe you endured for that long. Although you probably do have "every item a ranger wish he had" lol. ;p

I was a ranger ever since it was possible to be a ranger. (basically the begining) I made alts for 5 days got em to level 80 and then I quit and leveled my ranger again. sloowwww progress. Why did I come back? My guess is that my ranger was stronger than a level 80 so I went back because I missed that power. Not saying the ranger was strong but compared to a level 80 hell yeah. Also I was a pvp champion. Killed all sides mages. (bolas useless)

Had OP light heal rings so it went like this: Bolas (attack) run (bolas) (get damaged) light heal again. (light heal wasn't nerfed then) They could never hurt me enough that I couldn't heal or their skill might miss which would get me a head start. What I hated about people who were pvp fighters is when they insult you and call you weak. I knew rangers were OP so I never did unless that person deserved it. (being a brat or an ass)
Ashley A - Mabon - Novalis - 222 - Mage
Azona - Mabon - Novalis - 209 - Druid
0x15 - Mabon - Novalis - 216 - Rogue

Allymia - Epona - 220 - Rogue
Fire Mage - Epona - 220 - Mage

Aethinry Donn - Belenus - 221 - Warrior
Dakara - Belenus - 200 - Mage

Re: Ranger Vs Rogue!

#70
I do have access to some of the best gear possible...
Would you clarify when you say that I'm delusional?

My experience with ranger is similar to Robax in a sense, I think we are a needed and fun class, I'm never happier in game then when I am on my ranger, unless I am using my rangers gear on my rogue :)

Robax I find your post quite misleading and full of misinformation, while I do share your enthusiasm for ranger and love the class I am not delusional, I see how much of a struggle it is to level ranger without the best gear.

Ranger is like every class, if you have all (or most) of the best items, your toon is awesome, so you think your class is awesome.

I also don't buy into the garbage that rangers are not needed, or they should be abolished, that's just nonsense as well.

Our so called support skills suck, bottom line. I don't need to see make believe numbers to be proven wrong, if u seriously think sharpen is good or entangle is good you have not been paying attention. Our best skill is bolas no doubt and it's very useful and fun as heck but outside of that meh to the rest of em, they pretty much all suck. Light heal? Go back to u2 or u2 that's when light heal was useful , now if u show me an end game ranger using light heal I just laugh at em. Defensive spikes? Pfffft what would anyone need a cloak type skill that hits entire group?
2: No 190 ranger would bother with skill rings if possible, we stick to damage gear only.... (and now im back defending rangers, bah.)

Doesn't that mean you disagree with everything you have been typing ?
Yeah, you are sorta indirectly stating that our skills aren't dps where as other classes skills are. There are some really incredible skill rings. A ranger on my world has Abyssal I think it was with +9 Sharpen Weps +9 Steady Aim which increases his damage by a ton.
Rogue 166 - Ghostbro
Ranger 126 - Acebow
Warrior 85 - Ghostwar

Soldiersofjah
SULIS

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