Celtic Heroes

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Re: Apostate bracelet

#11
Difinitus wrote:
Daegenerate wrote:
Difinitus wrote:
Every kill has the same chance of spawning the named mob that drops the item. It does not factor in how many times the mob was killed.

Ok so whats the percentage


Unfortunately, we don't reveal drop rates on items obtained in the game. It's just really really rare.

If the named mob has the same spawn chance as a regular mob then i believe it should be. 1/3, 33.333333334% chance because there are only 2 variants of the placeholder and then the apostate mob, you cant say its really really rare then say it has the the exact same chances to spawn as a regular

Re: Apostate bracelet

#12
Daegenerate wrote:
Difinitus wrote:
Daegenerate wrote:Ok so whats the percentage


Unfortunately, we don't reveal drop rates on items obtained in the game. It's just really really rare.

If the named mob has the same spawn chance as a regular mob then i believe it should be. 1/3, 33.333333334% chance because there are only 2 variants of the placeholder and then the apostate mob, you cant say its really really rare then say it has the the exact same chances to spawn as a regular


I never said that the 'named mob' that drops the accessory has the same chance to spawn as the regular ones. If so, everyone would have one by now.

What I meant was that every kill of the regular mob has the same chance to spawn the 'named mob'. It does not increase the chances of the 'named mob' appearing the more you kill the regular mobs. Some gacha games refer to this as a 'pity mechanic' where if you roll for something enough times, you're eventually guaranteed a good result - this is not the case for the Apostate Bracer.

When the regular mob dies, it does one of two things: spawn the regular mob again or spawn the named mob. The named mob's chance to spawn is really really rare, therefore making the item really really rare.
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Re: Apostate bracelet

#13
Difinitus wrote:
Daegenerate wrote:
Difinitus wrote:
Unfortunately, we don't reveal drop rates on items obtained in the game. It's just really really rare.

If the named mob has the same spawn chance as a regular mob then i believe it should be. 1/3, 33.333333334% chance because there are only 2 variants of the placeholder and then the apostate mob, you cant say its really really rare then say it has the the exact same chances to spawn as a regular


I never said that the 'named mob' that drops the accessory has the same chance to spawn as the regular ones. If so, everyone would have one by now.

What I meant was that every kill of the regular mob has the same chance to spawn the 'named mob'. It does not increase the chances of the 'named mob' appearing the more you kill the regular mobs. Some gacha games refer to this as a 'pity mechanic' where if you roll for something enough times, you're eventually guaranteed a good result - this is not the case for the Apostate Bracer.

When the regular mob dies, it does one of two things: spawn the regular mob again or spawn the named mob. The named mob's chance to spawn is really really rare, therefore making the item really really rare.


Why not just bring out the numbers you’re already explaining half the mechanic, i find it hard to believe that every mob has the same rate, no matter how much its denied the initial spawns were pretty much first 5 kills and statistically when one item drops so does the other variants of the similar item.

And now that i have your attention did you think that making the highest value bracelet on a bottable crappy mob was the smartest thing to do? Dont take it as an attack its constructive criticism

Re: Apostate bracelet

#14
Daegenerate wrote:
Difinitus wrote:
Daegenerate wrote:If the named mob has the same spawn chance as a regular mob then i believe it should be. 1/3, 33.333333334% chance because there are only 2 variants of the placeholder and then the apostate mob, you cant say its really really rare then say it has the the exact same chances to spawn as a regular


I never said that the 'named mob' that drops the accessory has the same chance to spawn as the regular ones. If so, everyone would have one by now.

What I meant was that every kill of the regular mob has the same chance to spawn the 'named mob'. It does not increase the chances of the 'named mob' appearing the more you kill the regular mobs. Some gacha games refer to this as a 'pity mechanic' where if you roll for something enough times, you're eventually guaranteed a good result - this is not the case for the Apostate Bracer.

When the regular mob dies, it does one of two things: spawn the regular mob again or spawn the named mob. The named mob's chance to spawn is really really rare, therefore making the item really really rare.


Why not just bring out the numbers you’re already explaining half the mechanic, i find it hard to believe that every mob has the same rate, no matter how much its denied the initial spawns were pretty much first 5 kills and statistically when one item drops so does the other variants of the similar item.

And now that i have your attention did you think that making the highest value bracelet on a bottable crappy mob was the smartest thing to do? Dont take it as an attack its constructive criticism



The mechanic is pretty simple to understand, and can be assumed based on common sense and basic observation (at least as far as I see it).

Releasing specific numbers (for either drop rates or spawn rates) would be a bad idea imo...players would then take those numbers, match them against their own numbers, and complain when they don't line up - because they won't. The only way to get an accurate comparison would be to have hundreds of thousands of tests...and even then, the probability factor would still leave margin for error.

As for whether apostates are a good idea in general - I personally think that having one of the best items in the game as a drop that any player has the potential of getting is a decent idea, though not a great one. It prevents endgame clans from locking other players out of the chance of getting it, and also prevents players from simply purchasing the best thing in the game.

The biggest problem (imo) is that there is a set spawn location, which leads to the botting issue you mention. I personally would rather have it be an even rarer drop, but potentially drop from any mob in the towers (or even just certain floors). That way players can't simply farm exclusively for it, it would just drop rarely (theoretically) as players are leveling.
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Re: Apostate bracelet

#17
Eragon123 wrote:
Daegenerate wrote:
Difinitus wrote:
I never said that the 'named mob' that drops the accessory has the same chance to spawn as the regular ones. If so, everyone would have one by now.

What I meant was that every kill of the regular mob has the same chance to spawn the 'named mob'. It does not increase the chances of the 'named mob' appearing the more you kill the regular mobs. Some gacha games refer to this as a 'pity mechanic' where if you roll for something enough times, you're eventually guaranteed a good result - this is not the case for the Apostate Bracer.

When the regular mob dies, it does one of two things: spawn the regular mob again or spawn the named mob. The named mob's chance to spawn is really really rare, therefore making the item really really rare.


Why not just bring out the numbers you’re already explaining half the mechanic, i find it hard to believe that every mob has the same rate, no matter how much its denied the initial spawns were pretty much first 5 kills and statistically when one item drops so does the other variants of the similar item.

And now that i have your attention did you think that making the highest value bracelet on a bottable crappy mob was the smartest thing to do? Dont take it as an attack its constructive criticism



The mechanic is pretty simple to understand, and can be assumed based on common sense and basic observation (at least as far as I see it).

Releasing specific numbers (for either drop rates or spawn rates) would be a bad idea imo...players would then take those numbers, match them against their own numbers, and complain when they don't line up - because they won't. The only way to get an accurate comparison would be to have hundreds of thousands of tests...and even then, the probability factor would still leave margin for error.

As for whether apostates are a good idea in general - I personally think that having one of the best items in the game as a drop that any player has the potential of getting is a decent idea, though not a great one. It prevents endgame clans from locking other players out of the chance of getting it, and also prevents players from simply purchasing the best thing in the game.

The biggest problem (imo) is that there is a set spawn location, which leads to the botting issue you mention. I personally would rather have it be an even rarer drop, but potentially drop from any mob in the towers (or even just certain floors). That way players can't simply farm exclusively for it, it would just drop rarely (theoretically) as players are leveling.


Ofcourse players would compare their numbers to the given value, and yeah if you’re adding something like an apostate to a common mob its only natural that they went through hundreds of testing no? Or was the idea halfassed and made just to put the playerbase on hold for months on end so they dont quit while nothing gets updated? :lol:

Not to mention we were told to go find these mobs ourselves close to no clues, then magically we have to somehow win the 0.0000000000000001% spawn luck aswell

Best item in the game is obtained through a 1 in 92637363738737 chance crappy mob rather than a poorly designed 99 orb insta wipe aoe nuke raid :)

Re: Apostate bracelet

#18
I guess I’ll toss my insight in here... the game is so stale now that this item and this update from November 2018 is basically the only thing people have really cared about in the past 2 years so it’s fair everyone knows what happened.

Initial drop rate when it first came out was something like 1 in 5k. I know I and a few others all got ours after roughly 20-30 hours.

There was a group chat on Line of the top DPS people from each server, with the devs included.
After a few different people from this chat all got their brace in first week after discovery, they suddenly started complaining it’s too common and some days later in the next bug fix, the drop rate was nerfed to hell and has remained since.

Unfortunately I was kicked from the chat for trying to reason that the original rate was totally fine, rather it’s the game design and item itself that’s flawed..
So no idea what discussions took place after that.

The reason this brace has become what it is, is that 1. It’s the most powerful bracelet in the game, 2. Anybody can get it, and most importantly 3. After the top players got theirs, they complained to the devs and convinced them it’s too OP to keep the drop rate the way it originally was. Whether point #3 actually had any impact on the devs decision, we will never know for sure. What we do know, and the key takeaway, is the developers made the decision, for some reason, to nerf the drop rate of this item shortly after it had already been introduced to circulation, and after it had already been obtained by a few key players.

I agree.. the initial item, in its entirety, was not implemented correctly and *had* to be changed.
However, the change should have been to the stats of the item, a change that would affect the entire player base equally. To change the drop date of the item, AFTER it had already been obtained by players, is totally despicable in my eyes.

Though, the fascination about this item, and the rest of the items introduced in the Nov 2018 update is not just to do with the stats.
The fascination is that this update introduced something never before seen in CH (and probably never to be seen again): the chance for a single player activity to actually have a meaningful impact on gameplay.

The entire endgame design has been the same throughout the entire history of this game.
The only thing that has changed is the frequency at which you can complete endgame content.
Now, the only meaningful progress a player can have to becoming more powerful happens in large groups, where every few days some bored group of 15+ players begrudgingly agree to log in for 30 minutes for a chance of one of them getting a good item.

The Apostate introduced a totally new way to progress. Instead of coordinating with a clan to log in and kill some raid boss and log off, players could now, by themselves, take a proactive approach to playing this game, where actually sitting down for a long period and doing some solo grinding could reward them with an item that competed with the rest of the endgame items.

The number of players still going after this item actually shows us that players WANT to proactively play this game. They want to log many hours into an activity, and they want those hours to mean something. Not everyone wants to play by just doing some raid for 15 minutes a day and go offline.
Having this item still exist today, in the state that it’s in, is a giant F U to those players.

This initial introduction of meaningful solo content in my opinion would have been the best update this game had ever seen, and hopefully could have been the first of many such updates. It’s too bad it was implemented so poorly.


tldr:
Apostate is the only meaningful solo content in this game.
Terrible game design by the devs to make this item better than anything you could get from other endgame content.
Absolutely unethical behavior by the developers to make such a drastic change to the drop rate, AFTER the item had already been obtained by players.
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Re: Apostate bracelet

#19
Jake wrote:I guess I’ll toss my insight in here... the game is so stale now that this item and this update from November 2018 is basically the only thing people have really cared about in the past 2 years so it’s fair everyone knows what happened.

Initial drop rate when it first came out was something like 1 in 5k. I know I and a few others all got ours after roughly 20-30 hours.

There was a group chat on Line of the top DPS people from each server, with the devs included.
After a few different people from this chat all got their brace in first week after discovery, they suddenly started complaining it’s too common and some days later in the next bug fix, the drop rate was nerfed to hell and has remained since.

Unfortunately I was kicked from the chat for trying to reason that the original rate was totally fine, rather it’s the game design and item itself that’s flawed..
So no idea what discussions took place after that.

The reason this brace has become what it is, is that 1. It’s the most powerful bracelet in the game, 2. Anybody can get it, and most importantly 3. After the top players got theirs, they complained to the devs and convinced them it’s too OP to keep the drop rate the way it originally was. Whether point #3 actually had any impact on the devs decision, we will never know for sure. What we do know, and the key takeaway, is the developers made the decision, for some reason, to nerf the drop rate of this item shortly after it had already been introduced to circulation, and after it had already been obtained by a few key players.

I agree.. the initial item, in its entirety, was not implemented correctly and *had* to be changed.
However, the change should have been to the stats of the item, a change that would affect the entire player base equally. To change the drop date of the item, AFTER it had already been obtained by players, is totally despicable in my eyes.

Though, the fascination about this item, and the rest of the items introduced in the Nov 2018 update is not just to do with the stats.
The fascination is that this update introduced something never before seen in CH (and probably never to be seen again): the chance for a single player activity to actually have a meaningful impact on gameplay.

The entire endgame design has been the same throughout the entire history of this game.
The only thing that has changed is the frequency at which you can complete endgame content.
Now, the only meaningful progress a player can have to becoming more powerful happens in large groups, where every few days some bored group of 15+ players begrudgingly agree to log in for 30 minutes for a chance of one of them getting a good item.

The Apostate introduced a totally new way to progress. Instead of coordinating with a clan to log in and kill some raid boss and log off, players could now, by themselves, take a proactive approach to playing this game, where actually sitting down for a long period and doing some solo grinding could reward them with an item that competed with the rest of the endgame items.

The number of players still going after this item actually shows us that players WANT to proactively play this game. They want to log many hours into an activity, and they want those hours to mean something. Not everyone wants to play by just doing some raid for 15 minutes a day and go offline.
Having this item still exist today, in the state that it’s in, is a giant F U to those players.

This initial introduction of meaningful solo content in my opinion would have been the best update this game had ever seen, and hopefully could have been the first of many such updates. It’s too bad it was implemented so poorly.


tldr:
Apostate is the only meaningful solo content in this game.
Terrible game design by the devs to make this item better than anything you could get from other endgame content.
Absolutely unethical behavior by the developers to make such a drastic change to the drop rate, AFTER the item had already been obtained by players.



Alright, lets get started.

Jake wrote:I guess I’ll toss my insight in here... the game is so stale now that this item and this update from November 2018 is basically the only thing people have really cared about in the past 2 years


I don't know about you or your server but here in mabon we like to kill dino, and its a pretty big update if you ask me. Im sure many of the other servers that do kill dino will also agree.

Jake wrote:There was a group chat on Line of the top DPS people from each server, with the devs included.
After a few different people from this chat all got their brace in first week after discovery, they suddenly started complaining it’s too common and some days later in the next bug fix, the drop rate was nerfed to hell and has remained since.


Correct there is a DPS chat where devs used to be, but the part you didn't mention is the only person from that group that got the brace was no other than you. Now ill do some light explanations so you can understand why the nerf happened. I don't need to show you the math of the differences between an apostate to godly ingen/barb/havoc. The difference between them is mountains and valleys. Now think about how many drops gelebron can drop. Now think about how many godly ingen/barb/havoc braces each server has. Now i don't need to explain to you what the probability of each of these braces dropping are. You're a smart boy -you can figure it out. The apostate mob spawns every 4-6 minutes. For simplistic purposes so people can understand lets say it spawns every 5 minutes. Say its farmed the whole day. That's 288 times its killed per day give or take. Now x7 for a week of farming that's 2016. Now say you farmed for a whole month so 2016x4=8064 that's nearly 2 apostates with the original ratio. Now say you farmed a whole year that's 96768 /5000 that's give or take 19 apostates in a year. There's barely any godly ingen/barb/havoc on any server and you think its fair to have atleast 19 apostates a year?? Now lets say gele spawns every 48 hours without the window and its killed instantly thats 168 gelebrons a year. Now how many of those do you think will drop a godly ingen/havoc/barb? Now maybe you understand better. We wanted the rate to be nerfed because of how op the difference was, i'm not surprised you didn't mention any of this since you wanted the rates to stay.

Normally i would've quoted more of what you listed but whats the point. You will once again only listen to reply, and not listen to understand
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Re: Apostate bracelet

#20
xTim wrote:the part you didn't mention is the only person from that group that got the brace was no other than you

I did mention that, right at the top. And I was not the only one.. Even if I were the only one to get the brace, my argument stands.
Jake wrote:I know I and a few others all got ours after roughly 20-30 hours.


I don't know why you're talking about comparisons with Gele braces.
Its almost as if you missed these parts:
Jake wrote:I agree.. the initial item, in its entirety, was not implemented correctly and *had* to be changed.
However, the change should have been to the stats of the item, a change that would affect the entire player base equally. To change the drop date of the item, AFTER it had already been obtained by players, is totally despicable in my eyes.
[...]
tldr:
Terrible game design by the devs to make this item better than anything you could get from other endgame content.

I never made any argument that the original design was good.
In fact, my argument is totally the opposite.
The initial design, of the best brace in the game being such a common drop, was totally terrible game design and had to be changed.

But I think you missed the point of my post:
The apostate represented the introduction of valuable solo content to the game.
The change which was made to the drop rate totally devalued this solo content, was unfair to the entire playerbase, and was unethical.
The change should have been to the stats of the item, to balance it with the other endgame items, as this change would affect the playerbase equally and would maintain the integrity of the solo content.

xTim wrote:We wanted the rate to be nerfed

A player and their clan can spend years killing Gele and never get a godly drop, but somebody could go get this brace in 50 hours. You think thats unfair - you're totally right, it is unfair.
Now here is the flip side of that.
The top players of the game get a few of these bracelets, and after they get them, convince the developers to nerf the drop rates. Don't you think thats equally unfair?
It doesn't matter *why* you wanted the rate to be nerfed. The point is, you wanted it, and for some reason, the developers listened.
By changing the drop rate, the solo content update is devalued and the whole player base, outside of the 50 people in this group chat, are told to eat unfathomable.
The developers should have actually done their job, and done proper design to balance this item against the other endgame items in the game. Instead, they took the easy way out and listened to those vocal minority, and changed a drop rate. And because of that action, there is once again no valuable solo content in the game, and players are left wasting their time trying to get an item that will never come.

xTim wrote:You will once again only listen to reply

What do you mean 'once again'?
I've never spoken to you before, I've no idea who you are.

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