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Re: VOTING: End bosses dicing

#31
I don't know where were at now lol, still talking about aggy or the new update 4 one? I believe the update 4 one is exaggerated to be hard therefore it being class based only. But I also do believe its only dropping rems for the actul armour quest only like deadroot and the others?
Is there one or more bosses that will be so hard that it actually requires dicing?
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Re: VOTING: End bosses dicing

#32
Lukov wrote:But using shads class restricting these drops you can only sell so much like rings wise, you might get lucky and get a royal touch which could sell up to 100k but you might get a royal spring of life which you cant give away. From what i understand from shads dicing, we would be dicing all drops including non-quest drops such as rings and such, now if you were only a mage no other class, you would get to sell maybe 1-2 items a month because the drops are so common with the ratio of mages:mage drops what helps them make money. A no class drop everyone wants? How much chance do you have of winning this in a group 1/8, sometimes you wont be very lucky. I just think one group kills shouldnt have the need to be diced but lugh just needs to learn not to be greedy. High prices and high restrictions are signs of greediness in this game. Mages and possibly late druids will struggle for money. Even selling the occasional druid drop they might get.

Also these new quest items will only be sold for so long, look how quickly covers, bindings and pages sales died off, its not just main quest items that cause the problems im just looking at the big picture following old trends with item sales and all.



If im correct nobody said u couldnt sale stuff. But what would be the point? Y does everyone assume that other drops from old bosses wont sale. There will always be low lvls joining and lvling up. So what is the big deal here? People make gold everyday from old bosses. Just because we dont sale the new boss drops doesnt mean we cant make gold.
Thoro
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"Strap on your Thor helmet and do the fandango."
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Re: VOTING: End bosses dicing

#33
+ ADVANCED, and herewith I break my self-imposed forum posting exile.

Some peoples' posts seem to have disappeared from this and at least one of the other threads discussing dicing/drop distribution/level requirements. I'm pretty sure I read a post from xyn/akbar that summed up the issue nicely. In any case, the level requirements is a separate issue so I'll try to keep focused on the issue of drop distribution.

For clarity, let me try to identify some basic assumptions about what I believe we're talking about here:
  • What we are trying to achieve is a general consensus in Lugh, regardless of clan affiliation, of what happens to end game boss drops. We are trying to do this by finding a system that the majority of us can agree to. Now, the rules lawyers among you will argue that majority does not equal consensus. You made your point, now let's continue and actually try to address the issue at hand.
  • By "we" I mean "we, the players of Lugh who are capable/willing/have time for and are interested in participating in these fights", as opposed to any sort of "royal we" or suchlike
  • What are End Game Bosses for the purposes of this discussion? Aggragoth and the impatiently-anticipated Dragon Armor bosses, as well as any event bosses that get released in the near term. We are not talking about the bosses that we have outleveled and now have on farm mode: Retaking Fairyland, Test of Regulus, Meteoric Bosses.
  • These are rules that once there is a clear majority, will be implemented soon. Although there are a lot of pot shots being taken in these discussion threads, the discussion is ultimately about finding a solution to move forward with. The past is the past, and we can now move on to solving the problem at hand, rather than arguing that [person X's point] is [expletive/invalid/hypocrisy/etc] because [something they did and maybe still do]
Ok, now that I have that out of the way, let me ask a few questions:

1. WHY ARE YOU AT THIS FIGHT?
2. WHY ARE THE PEOPLE WHO ARE ORGANIZING THIS FIGHT HERE?
3. WHY DO THE OTHER PEOPLE THINK YOU ARE HERE?
(Aren't you glad that the forum doesn't allow blinking text?)

Here are some potential answers:
  • my clan mates or friends called me to help
  • I need it for a quest
  • I need one or more of its drops for my main
  • I need one or more of its drops for my alt
  • I multi box and need one or more of its drops for one of my mains, because really, I only ever play them together so they're more of a double main than a main and an alt
  • I need one or more of its drops for my friend/clanmate/family member
  • I need one or more of its drops to repay a loan of the same item
  • The gold drops are fantastic, and who doesn't need gold?
  • I don't really care about the drops, it's great to see everyone working together for a common purpose
  • I need a drop and it's great to see everyone working together for a common purpose
  • I am one of [small number] of people capable of [performing the vital role I play]
  • I love a challenge
  • If I get a drop, I can sell it so I have enough gold to [buy items from plat sellers/buy items from the lux shop/buy _____/accumulate a hoard that would put even a dragon to shame]
  • and so on
So where am I going with this? Well, if I understand the ADVANCED proposal properly, Shadow's intent for the end game boss fights that he organizes is:

For the people whose toons are at the fight to use the drops in the most efficient way for the participants in the fight, until everyone at the fight is properly geared. Once people are completely geared, the drops start to be distributed for the other reasons noted above. The dicing is for when there is more than one player of a particular class at the fight where both toons still need a drop.

What about single-group end game boss fights? I think the intent is the same. Get geared so it becomes easier to get everyone else geared. Profit later. I don't think the single-group rules are going to necessarily be used in all situations; it really depends on who is there and what the intent of the group is. If your clan decides to do a clan raid in order to stock the clan bank, I don't think anyone is going to take issue with it. If you put together a profiteering raid group and everyone is on board that drops go to who gets them, to do what they want with, more power to you. But if you participate in an "advanced dicing rules single group gearing raid" and keep your drop instead of giving it up to the purpose of the group, your group members will send you to that special place in their memories for the noobs who played dead through Fellfire and Falgren and Rockbelly, kick you out of the group, and never invite you again. Keep in mind, though, that given the way things are going with event bosses and the recent changes to Aggy's cave, we can expect any new quest and end game bosses to require multiple groups. I imagine that it will be a long time before we are able to do them with a single group.

What about other arguments in favor of the "who gets keeps" proposal for single groups? A lot of the examples given in favour of such arguments are purely speculative, as I haven’t ever seen a serious player not level because of lack of gold. I have seen people pass on fights because they didn't have idols, but I've also often seen the rest of the group give such players idols before the fight if they are truly necessary for the fight.

  • One argument can be summarized as "but I NEEEEEEEED the money". That's what farming and grinding are for. To ask the question “How are we supposed to make money without grinding and/or plat?” is to ask the question “How are we supposed to get paid without going to work?” There are plenty of people willing to pay good coin for all sorts of drops, boss and otherwise. Among these people are many non plat players who make their money by grinding. Most of them never have a chance at winning the end game boss drop profiteering lottery as we've experienced it. I’m in favour of profiteering, but only after the primary purpose of the group – getting the right drops to people who are at the fight who still need them – has been achieved.
  • Another argument boils down to “[Class X] is [advantaged/disadvantaged] because there are [more/less] people playing that class.” Welcome to reality, which has demonstrated that the laws of supply and demand are alive and well in the Celtic Heroes universe. Drops for some classes go into the open market sooner than others and some drops are more profitable than others. But once an item becomes available to the market, it will always be possible to find a buyer, at the right price. Yes, there will be price differences based on class. That’s how the market works. But the market price almost always exceeds what it costs to acquire the item.
A further argument suggests that Shadow is greedy, or a dictator, or has no right to set the rules for the entire server, or has a misplaced sense of entitlement. I’m not Shadow’s lapdog, and am not an apologist for him. Yes, he is aggressive, brusque, opinionated, and judgmental. These are character traits that, for the most part, we expect of or put with in our leaders. Consider the following:
  • Is Shadow Greedy? As chieftain of the most powerful clan on Lugh, he could easily set clan policy that the chieftain always gets the best drops, and that everyone else gets his scraps, or that all drops go into a clan bank for distribution from highest level downward. Both would be advantageous to him as his levels are higher than those of all his clanmates. Now that Berserkers has boosted its ranks of strong dps and tanks with a host of powerful druids, he could easily set clan policy to exclude non clanmates from boss fights. With two of the highest level toons on the server, he could easily argue for a drop policy that allows one drop per toon rather than one drop per player. He has done none of these things. Furthermore, when new content has been released, I can’t count the number of times I’ve seen people refuse to set prices on new drops “until Shadow is on” in the hopes that Shadow’s suggested price is higher than what has been offered, or invoke Shadow’s name when quoting an exorbitant price on something. Does he set high prices for items that are rare or expensive to acquire? Yes. Does this create a de facto standard for prices? Yes. All this proves to me is that Shadow has a good understanding of supply and demand, and that everyone who follows his lead is just as greedy as they claim that Shadow is.
  • Is Shadow a Dictator who mistakely feels Entitled? Shadow is telling us how he sees the drop distribution for a certain kind of fight. It just so happens that he is one of the only people able to tank these bosses, which means that if he doesn’t show up, the fight won’t happen. Or it won’t happen without great expense. Therefore, it could be argued that he is setting policy for the server. Works for me, and judging from the votes upthread, it appears to work for most people. I don’t know how other people set up their groups, but in most cases when I get invited to a fight, I defer to the organizer. When I organize a fight, I expect people to defer to me. There are certain people who I refuse to group with. I guess that makes me a dictator too. As for entitlement, come talk to me about entitlement next time you level two toons to the top of your class, and are able to simultaneously tank Aggy on one character, and get the kill on another. You might not agree with everything Shadow does or says, but you can’t argue that he shows up, puts together a crew, and gets the job done.
And with that, I go back to lurking.
Lugh | Lightface: Druid 141 | Kaonashi: Druid 141 | FacepaIm: Rogue 141
The B Team: Noface: Warrior 130 | Tsundere: Mage 130 | Smileyface: Druid 130
Retired from CH since 2013

Re: VOTING: End bosses dicing

#34
Yay, I finally saw this post (I had heard it existed)

I have had long thoughts with toy and thought long and hard about the two methods. I understand that there are more Druids and warriors and they get less of a chance at drops. However, I would point out that EVERY aggy battle requires them. If Toy is online, he will always be invited to aggy. On the other hand,I am helpful, but not necessary. I am often invited cause I have friends there, but I don't deceive myself into thinking I play an indispensable role - especially with 4 other 150+ rangers around. Now this point of necessity doesn't fully counter act the 'lots of Druids, lower chance of Druid drop', but does mitigate it over time for active players.

The other argument i see is the advanced method gives less chance of making needed money. Sorry, I find this argument a non-starter. I have never fought and end game boss in the hope of getting something to sell, but to get something I can use. And yes, I find it annoying when a ranger drop goes to a different class.

As for making money: any toon at our level can make plenty of gold. I am horrible at selling stuff, but I make a good amount of gold. Personally, I cannot imagine that 'winning the lottery' by getting a good aggy drop to sell is a viable long term method to staying in enough gold to buy elixers and such. For me, killing red ph guys and collecting gems on a regular basis, has been quite good and very reliable revenue stream with the occasional bump from selling a frag, rem,tab,crest at reasonable price.

Finally, to the poor mages who would just keep collecting Mage drops that have little resale value: first, they are getting outfitted faster than anyone else- and thus more powerful and able to farm gold. Second: I've noticed more mages being created (expanding market). Third: now that i have played a mage, i see the need to have a much larger collection of items so i can refocus my skills depending on the type of battle and my role (support vs. dps). My ranger rarely swaps out magic items inuse. Overall, I don't think the top mages will suffer.

Thus, having given it a lot of thought, I will vote for the advanced method. While I can't rule out it is because I am a ranger and may benefit from it, I think I would feel the same if I were a Druid or warrior.

Please know toy,that I fully heard your arguments,and I am willing to try the other method if the grp at the battle wants to do that. But I think the advanced method is the better way to go, despite it's flaws. I hope someone more clever than me will figure out a way to mitigate the Druid/warrior probability issue.

Thanks
Civility, Integrity, and the Hermeneutic of Generosity

World: Lugh
Akbar: Ranger 220+
DrXyn-Druid 180+
Xyn: Mage 170+
Rabka: Rogue 150+
Rabak: Warrior 90+
Clan: Chieftain of Ancients

Re: VOTING: End bosses dicing

#35
+ ADVANCED

great to read all the thoughts about new ways to distribute new important items.
i dont think that whatever idea we finally go with is written in stone.
as we see the system needs to be improved while we play, i am confident that we will adjust it.
good to see how we all cooperate trying to set up an enjoyable gameplay. lets see how we will continue.

exciting leader and follower discussion. also in other threads before.
come on guys.
not going to comment on this.

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