Celtic Heroes

The Official Forum for Celtic Heroes, the 3D MMORPG for iOS and Android Devices

Re: Systems for dom clans

#31
bob the mage wrote:3) Relax
I think a lot of people get a bit too invested into certain aspects of varying hobbies, whether thats gaming or otherwise. I think some of you need to breathe and relax a little bit lol. Life is too short to throw a fit over everything that you disagree with. Have fun, live a little, relax. :P

Big +1 to this.

It's always easy to "hate" the people that win, or that run the clans that get the gear.

I play on Sulis, and as some of you may have seen on the forum from time to time, there's historically always been a lot of competition. Me and some of my friends in game never wanted to join the "Dom" clan as we didn't like how it was run. Rather than join and complain about it internally, we always kept to our own generally very small clan grinding hard (far too many hours a day). A couple of our guys started on Nuada when it was released and made some friends there, and convinced some of them to come over to Sulis and join our clan for some competition. After a few months of losing a lot of bosses, after gearing very strategically - and in many ways unfairly - we managed to get a lock down on Gelebron, which after getting a months of Gelebron drops (Including the event) we managed to again gear ourselves well enough to take over BT. The Dom clan didn't really put up much resistance after we overcame them, I guess they weren't used to losing.

Point being is, if you don't like how a clan is run and it truly is unfair, make your own. If you're right you shouldn't have much trouble convincing others of it. You might even enjoy the competition. We even let the leaders of the rival clan that shunned us for years join ours, and are allowed to participate on a drop system that our clannies decided was fair.
Image


“Brevity is the soul of wit.”

Re: Systems for dom clans

#32
So... this may get a bet technical but I'm going to try and avoid that.
DKP systems operate under the principles of fiat currency systems. In other words, 1 DKP has no value outside what the clan leadership gives it by establishing a system for its use. As such, saying DKP systems are x, where x is anything but "a fiat currency template" is incorrect under the logic that with it being a template, it can be converted into almost any other system.

For example, Zkills says it isn't new player friendly. This is possibly the highest critique of a DKP system, with the second most common being how much work it takes to upkeep. There is a normative or value based judgement that can be made of this statement, such as why should newer players be on par with older players? This however just deflects the point made, and is unnecessary as the point itself, that a DKP system is unfair to new players, doesn't need to be true. One simple reply would be to look at decay or an inactivity tax. These can be structured from the view that old players should have priority and only inactive old players should be "punished," hence an inactivity tax. On the other hand it can be viewed as hoarding KP is bad and new active players should have the same advantage, activity current matters over all else. This would lead to a full decay system.
The second point Zkills brings up has to do with the drive for more. This follows a principle of diminishing marginal returns. Imagine you just ate 600 slices of pizza (no pineapple, duh), the 601st is going to provide a whole lot less joy than the 1st slice. The same can be said to apply to nearly everything (so long as other factors, such as production/usage remain constant), even DKP. This also plays into the notion of relative worth. If your KP system lets say has an average maximum of 100k DKP, the person with 100k DKP and the person with 500 DKP are going to value 50 DKP at different amounts. The easy solution is decay, as this makes getting insane amounts of KP impossible, however there are plenty of others from a KP cap to activity requirements to bid on gear.

These explanations are long winded (see my signature, I can't help it :lol: ), but the goal rather than to bore you is to show that DKP is merely a template for clans to use as they wish. So to say DKP is corrupt, DKP is unfair, DKP is X just doesn't follow any true logical follow through. Rather instead it would be better to say "DKP has high potential, but on average the systems end up as X, which is bad for 1, 2, and 3.

And here I was thinking my liberal arts triple major would never have any actual applications :lol:



Anyways, rather than trash talk systems as a whole, I think this thread would benefit from some positivity. In other words, rather than trash talk random systems you have seen, why not highlight what you would PREFER to see in a system?
Gwydion - Voted Top Noob of Relentless
BobsYourUncle 226 Fire Mage

Stubborn 220 Warrior (Tank)

Feel free to pm me about anything or talk to me in game :D
boymclir wrote:Bob The God

Shadae wrote:This Bob guy is a guide? Legitimately?

Pineapple does NOT belong on Pizza

Re: Systems for dom clans

#33
Zkills wrote:There is a lot more flaws to dkp then what you mentioned/tried to address. It’s not a new player/member friendly system and it’s a horrible system to use to incentivize people to go to bosses. People skip bosses all the time when they’re fully capable of attending. The obsession over wanting more and more points only lasts for so long. There’s just something super unsatisfying about killing a boss knowing you won’t get anything out of it, no chance whatsoever.



killing a boss knowing you won’t get anything out of it, no chance whatsoever.


This is false. I already addressed this point. Not sure how "new" you mean, two days?

Due to the banking system and the population of a clan, good drops do get banked. Readily out there.

Even our rogues get opportunities.

Whats the chances in any system that you get a void or godly? You do know those are rare to begin with, right? Right? Just being there at the time of it dropping needs to happen in the first place. I have never seen anyone in my clan whose always there at a randomly spawning boss. You do know the people there at the time of death have first dibs, right? You think everyone in the clan just bids on the drop even if they weren't there?

it’s a horrible system to use to incentivize people to go to bosses.


I guess if your clan hates each other? Its a nice way to socialise and talk to each other while you wait. Celtic Heroes is basically a social game. I know Epona hates each other but that doesn't mean other servers do. The system basically is the motivator to go to bosses? You might be confused with the rolling system where people stop going to bosses once they get the gear they need. *gasp* Are you saying theres a system where people DON'T get bored of killing snorri 500+ times? Well shoot, sign me up.

The obsession over wanting more and more points only lasts for so long.


Does it? I believe this is a personal opinion from your personal experience. Does competition get old? I have been playing this game since the beginning and its never gotten old for me. If you do get tired, cool, next person steps up. Although, when does anything in life ever not get old?
Ashley A - 222 Mage - Novalis - Mabon
000000000000000 - 216 Rogue - Novalis - Mabon
Azona - 210 Druid - Novalis - Mabon

Then some Epona toons yo

Re: Systems for dom clans

#34
The system I suggested would allow for everyone who participated to have a chance at a drop. If everyone contributes to the raid then everyone should have a shot at the loot that boss drops. The argument people make of “no no no, the hardest working players need to be rewarded” is not a strong one, this is a game not a job. Many people do not care to treat this game like a Job, some might even play to escape their jobs lmao. People love going to a boss knowing they have a chance of directly obtaining a drop, it’s more satisfying to get loot that way, versus getting made up points they then use to “buy” stuff. It’s how Epona gets such high attendances. I guarantee you almost every server is capable of getting the numbers Epona gets. Why can’t they ever reach those numbers consistently though? Because they’re using flawed systems that do not work well with this game. I said you’d be surprised to see how many skip out on bosses, hiding out on alts when bosses are up, logging off right before one is due, simply reading the message saying “meh” then going back to watching TV... it’s a lot worse on servers using dkp than it is for a server like Epona lol. How do I know? Because I used to do it (when I was farming for regen weapons when the unity update first dropped I would flat out ignore boss calls and continue farming because farming for a regen bow was more worth while then going to a boss and getting nothing) and I would always talk to players who did it as well lmao, and Epona always has higher numbers. I bet a lot of people reading this are guilty of it as well lol.

You guys sound like a bunch of greedy game developers lol. A player spends so much time going for endgame, and when he reaches endgame the developers slap them with a pay wall saying “if you want to access endgame content then you’re gonna have to pay a price” (*cough cough* bungie and Destiny). Same thing with you guys. Players spend an eternity trying to reach endgame, and when they do they’re met with a wall known as dominance that says “hold up there, if you want access to endgame content you’re gonna have to pay us with your time and work for us”... why?
Zkills, Proud general of the beloved KodiakReavers of Belenus, the G.O.A.T clan

Professor/Detective Zkills, op mage of Epona, chieftain of KodiakReavers. Server banned for doing PvP in arena.

Can you do the impossible?
Celtic Heroes Ultimate Challenge

Re: Systems for dom clans

#35
Zkills wrote:The system I suggested would allow for everyone who participated to have a chance at a drop. If everyone contributes to the raid then everyone should have a shot at the loot that boss drops. The argument people make of “no no no, the hardest working players need to be rewarded” is not a strong one, this is a game not a job. Many people do not care to treat this game like a Job, some might even play to escape their jobs lmao. People love going to a boss knowing they have a chance of directly obtaining a drop versus getting made up points they then use to “buy” stuff. It’s how Epona gets such high attendances. I guarantee you almost every server is capable of getting the numbers Epona gets. Why can’t they ever reach those numbers consistently though? Because they’re using flawed systems that do not work well with this game. I said you’d be surprised to see how many skip out on bosses, hiding out on alts when bosses are up, logging off right before one is due, simply reading the message saying “meh” then going back to watching TV... it’s a lot worse on servers using dkp than it is for a server like Epona lol. How do I know? Because I used to do it (when I was farming for regen weapons when the unity update first dropped I would flat out ignore boss calls and continue farming because farming for a regen bow was more worth while then going to a boss and getting nothing) and I would always talk to players who did it as well lmao, and Epona always has higher numbers. I bet a lot of people reading this are guilty of it as well lol.

You guys sound like a bunch of greedy game developers lol. A player spends so much time going for endgame, and when he reaches endgame the developers slap them with a pay wall saying “if you want to access endgame content then you’re gonna have to pay a price” (*cough cough* bungie and Destiny). Same thing with you guys. Players spend an eternity trying to reach endgame, and when they do they’re met with a wall known as dominance that says “hold up there, if you want access to endgame content you’re gonna have to pay us with your time and work for us”... why?



Thats not a viable system because I can almost 98% guarantee that VR would never do something as amazing as that. Also, if VR keeps making bosses that require a certain amount of players, that's going to bite people in the butt. Also, depending how they decide whats considered "participating" its an easy leech.

If theirs a certain "participation" in the raid, I can easily see it exploited. What if someone needs to log a different toon to fulfill an urgent need? Would the system consider two different toons that wasn't there the whole time as "not enough contribution"? How do you gauge support classes? Does it go based on damage or just skills used while in the area? What if I just cast bandage wounds and sharpen weapons on someone? Does that count?

Also no, Epona doesn't gather that many people because their "gearing" system works. It has large attendance because there aren't any meaning behind clans. Everyone and their grandmum knows a big boss is up when its up because its normally scheduled at a certain time to be killed giving everyone in existence in that server surplus time to attend. When a clan goes dom or a competing clan dies, people tend to quit. Some aren't even allowed to join the dom clan and for good reason, so they quit. Do you want the griefer to join your clan after what they did? Obviously not. No ones excluded in Epona, even the people who should be. As long as they don't run with a drop, they're okay to roll. This causes a buildup in the population. I would need a second pair of hands to count the people in Epona who wouldn't be let in the dom clan if Epona wasn't open. When two clans go for a lock, the moment lock is achieved, they back off, basically cutting the attendance numbers in half.
Ashley A - 222 Mage - Novalis - Mabon
000000000000000 - 216 Rogue - Novalis - Mabon
Azona - 210 Druid - Novalis - Mabon

Then some Epona toons yo

Re: Systems for dom clans

#36
My suggestion is nothing but a concept, meaning it’ll obviously need some polishing. Don’t really care to go into depth on how the balancing would or should work.

Yeah it definitely helps that players aren’t excluded from obtaining loot just because they’re in a different clan, but the real reason is because of how much more satisfying and “natural” it feels to win a drop straight from the boss. I say natural because that’s how other MMOs usually work, you get drops directly from the boss, not from some dusty player made clan bank. Knowing you have a chance at some loot at the end of every raid keeps you on the edge, and it makes you want to come back for more... especially if you’ve won before. All of that without worrying about dkp or attendance (some people drive themselves nuts over dkp/attendance, I’ve seen it before)... you just play to play, that simple. People like that. It’s less stressful. What I basically want is for Vr to make it so that the players can’t run the show when it comes to loot, because Epona still has a lot of issues when it comes to rolling after a boss. Also have you ever seen a sudden Mordy call on Epona? Or a necro call? Players flood the zone so quickly no matter what time of day it is... it’s so crazy that the Epona zerg was invented on necro where we would kill it without a tank because there’s so many players lol.
Zkills, Proud general of the beloved KodiakReavers of Belenus, the G.O.A.T clan

Professor/Detective Zkills, op mage of Epona, chieftain of KodiakReavers. Server banned for doing PvP in arena.

Can you do the impossible?
Celtic Heroes Ultimate Challenge

Re: Systems for dom clans

#37
bob the mage wrote:So... this may get a bet technical but I'm going to try and avoid that.
DKP systems operate under the principles of fiat currency systems. In other words, 1 DKP has no value outside what the clan leadership gives it by establishing a system for its use. As such, saying DKP systems are x, where x is anything but "a fiat currency template" is incorrect under the logic that with it being a template, it can be converted into almost any other system.

For example, Zkills says it isn't new player friendly. This is possibly the highest critique of a DKP system, with the second most common being how much work it takes to upkeep. There is a normative or value based judgement that can be made of this statement, such as why should newer players be on par with older players? This however just deflects the point made, and is unnecessary as the point itself, that a DKP system is unfair to new players, doesn't need to be true. One simple reply would be to look at decay or an inactivity tax. These can be structured from the view that old players should have priority and only inactive old players should be "punished," hence an inactivity tax. On the other hand it can be viewed as hoarding KP is bad and new active players should have the same advantage, activity current matters over all else. This would lead to a full decay system.
The second point Zkills brings up has to do with the drive for more. This follows a principle of diminishing marginal returns. Imagine you just ate 600 slices of pizza (no pineapple, duh), the 601st is going to provide a whole lot less joy than the 1st slice. The same can be said to apply to nearly everything (so long as other factors, such as production/usage remain constant), even DKP. This also plays into the notion of relative worth. If your KP system lets say has an average maximum of 100k DKP, the person with 100k DKP and the person with 500 DKP are going to value 50 DKP at different amounts. The easy solution is decay, as this makes getting insane amounts of KP impossible, however there are plenty of others from a KP cap to activity requirements to bid on gear.

These explanations are long winded (see my signature, I can't help it :lol: ), but the goal rather than to bore you is to show that DKP is merely a template for clans to use as they wish. So to say DKP is corrupt, DKP is unfair, DKP is X just doesn't follow any true logical follow through. Rather instead it would be better to say "DKP has high potential, but on average the systems end up as X, which is bad for 1, 2, and 3.

And here I was thinking my liberal arts triple major would never have any actual applications :lol:



Anyways, rather than trash talk systems as a whole, I think this thread would benefit from some positivity. In other words, rather than trash talk random systems you have seen, why not highlight what you would PREFER to see in a system?

The problem when you get technical with dkp (you kinda went down the technical route haha) is that it starts to sound good on paper, because it really does, but it ends up playing out horribly. The technical stuff does not hit the the points on the mental side of things, where dkp proves to be rather disastrous for not only the people apart of it but the game itself.

I have no problems with clans wanting to do dkp, my problem with dkp stems from the root of the issue which is dominance. Since dkp is so heavily related to dominance it’s almost natural to criticize it as well. If clans on a server like Epona want to use dkp than go for it, it doesn’t affect me or my gameplay and people can leave that clan without a penalty to their gameplay. When dominance is involved however everyone is forced to accept that system if they want loot. As for the argument “just make your own clan and compete”, easier said then done. Going up against a well established clan isn’t easy for a clan with a completely new way of thinking or new visions. Pretty much all of the clans that overthrew the previous top clans operate almost the same just with different leaders. Plus people quit when clans are overthrown which is counterproductive. You now rule the server, overthrew that evil dom clan, but at what cost? People quitting and now people view you guys as the bad guys because you’re really no different than the previous top clan no matter how much of a crusader you think you are.
Zkills, Proud general of the beloved KodiakReavers of Belenus, the G.O.A.T clan

Professor/Detective Zkills, op mage of Epona, chieftain of KodiakReavers. Server banned for doing PvP in arena.

Can you do the impossible?
Celtic Heroes Ultimate Challenge

Re: Systems for dom clans

#38
Zkills wrote:
bob the mage wrote:So... this may get a bet technical but I'm going to try and avoid that.
DKP systems operate under the principles of fiat currency systems. In other words, 1 DKP has no value outside what the clan leadership gives it by establishing a system for its use. As such, saying DKP systems are x, where x is anything but "a fiat currency template" is incorrect under the logic that with it being a template, it can be converted into almost any other system.

For example, Zkills says it isn't new player friendly. This is possibly the highest critique of a DKP system, with the second most common being how much work it takes to upkeep. There is a normative or value based judgement that can be made of this statement, such as why should newer players be on par with older players? This however just deflects the point made, and is unnecessary as the point itself, that a DKP system is unfair to new players, doesn't need to be true. One simple reply would be to look at decay or an inactivity tax. These can be structured from the view that old players should have priority and only inactive old players should be "punished," hence an inactivity tax. On the other hand it can be viewed as hoarding KP is bad and new active players should have the same advantage, activity current matters over all else. This would lead to a full decay system.
The second point Zkills brings up has to do with the drive for more. This follows a principle of diminishing marginal returns. Imagine you just ate 600 slices of pizza (no pineapple, duh), the 601st is going to provide a whole lot less joy than the 1st slice. The same can be said to apply to nearly everything (so long as other factors, such as production/usage remain constant), even DKP. This also plays into the notion of relative worth. If your KP system lets say has an average maximum of 100k DKP, the person with 100k DKP and the person with 500 DKP are going to value 50 DKP at different amounts. The easy solution is decay, as this makes getting insane amounts of KP impossible, however there are plenty of others from a KP cap to activity requirements to bid on gear.

These explanations are long winded (see my signature, I can't help it :lol: ), but the goal rather than to bore you is to show that DKP is merely a template for clans to use as they wish. So to say DKP is corrupt, DKP is unfair, DKP is X just doesn't follow any true logical follow through. Rather instead it would be better to say "DKP has high potential, but on average the systems end up as X, which is bad for 1, 2, and 3.

And here I was thinking my liberal arts triple major would never have any actual applications :lol:



Anyways, rather than trash talk systems as a whole, I think this thread would benefit from some positivity. In other words, rather than trash talk random systems you have seen, why not highlight what you would PREFER to see in a system?

The problem when you get technical with dkp (you kinda went down the technical route haha) is that it starts to sound good on paper, because it really does, but it ends up playing out horribly. The technical stuff does not hit the the points on the mental side of things, where dkp proves to be rather disastrous for not only the people apart of it but the game itself.

I have no problems with clans wanting to do dkp, my problem with dkp stems from the root of the issue which is dominance. Since dkp is so heavily related to dominance it’s almost natural to criticize it as well. If clans on a server like Epona want to use dkp than go for it, it doesn’t affect me or my gameplay and people can leave that clan without a penalty to their gameplay. When dominance is involved however everyone is forced to accept that system if they want loot. As for the argument “just make your own clan and compete”, easier said then done. Going up against a well established clan isn’t easy for a clan with a completely new way of thinking or new visions. Pretty much all of the clans that overthrew the previous top clans operate almost the same just with different leaders. Plus people quit when clans are overthrown which is counterproductive. You now rule the server, overthrew that evil dom clan, but at what cost? People quitting and now people view you guys as the bad guys because you’re really no different than the previous top clan no matter how much of a crusader you think you are.

Welcome to life lol.
Ya that’s going to be the way with anything anywhere, it’s not signally related to mmo gaming and certainly not to CH.
Only way to prevent that is to form your own clan, but like you said easier said than done.
Gwydion - Voted Top Noob of Relentless
BobsYourUncle 226 Fire Mage

Stubborn 220 Warrior (Tank)

Feel free to pm me about anything or talk to me in game :D
boymclir wrote:Bob The God

Shadae wrote:This Bob guy is a guide? Legitimately?

Pineapple does NOT belong on Pizza

Re: Systems for dom clans

#39
What do you guys think would change the game to avoid clans with too much power or systems that are flawed? Would be maybe cool if drops were based on percentage of damage dealt but everyone who participated in the group got a minimum drop of some kind. Maybe if you had enough damage you would get a untradable price that is needed for a quest set. And if you already have obtained it it would be cool if you got a a set amount of gold or a golden chest that gave small random prizes for Participating in the raid. Why should quest items be a tradable item? If it takes so many people it should just be a untradable programmed system to make it more stable. When you monopolize the items it makes the game more obvious is pay to win. Yes there are some servers were items are not sold but making items untradable for quest line, you could trade items to a vendor if you have multiples and upgrade say example 2 gems into egg, 4 eggs into a urn, 2 urns into a horn, 4 horns Into a crown. Why should quest items be a tradable item? If it takes so many people it should just be a untradable programmed system to make it more stable. When you monopolize the items it makes the game more obvious is pay to win. Yes there are some servers where items are not sold but making items on tradable for quest line gear would be a nice but ultimately this would be a change VR would never consider because it takes more reason away from buying platinum. This is kind of off topic I will admit but it’s could change how clans worked if they would change game.

Re: Systems for dom clans

#40
One of the biggest issue with clans is that the server is zero sum based instead of instanced. Hence players are forced to enter Dom clans instead of clans with integrity and fairness.

World of Warcraft's current loot system is fantastic.

1) built in loot distribution. No arguments there.
2) loot drop system is tracked per toon, and every time no loot is dropped for the toon the chance to get loot for next drop is increased gradually until 100%.
3) toon choose role for drop before encounter. Loot drops according to the role chosen.

The biggest advantage I can see is that it the only reason anyone gets behind in loot is not attending raids.

The best thing that can happen to loot is for the devs to take over loot distribution. Or for Dom clans to have a transparent system that adopts part of the WoW system.

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