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Re: A discussion about religion

#381
if faith was free of discrimination, i would be much more open to the possibility of believing the teachings of that faith
Faith IS free of discrimination. ALL are able to get into heaven. It says that in the bible too. Your augments against the faith come from the bible yet when the bible gives you arguments FOR the faith. They are ignored.
You know even Satan quoted the bible.

no..


The truth is: You want to live your life how YOU want on YOUR terms. The bible (regardless of how its written) would never change your mind about that. You know it and I know it so lets not play coy.
i have no issue with the bible, except that it was written by people who are naturally biased and discriminatory, myself included. the bible does discriminate against actions that those who wrote the book saw as sinful. there is also much discrimination in the interpretation of he bible

for example, almost every faith group believes their own to be correct, and many believe only people of their own faith go to heaven.


i have read the bible cover to cover 3 times
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Re: A discussion about religion

#383
Image
This wise young man in the picture above states my religious beliefs exactly.
Quite!

The spiritually inclined do believe its turtles all the way down...
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Re: A discussion about religion

#384
Yes I completely apologize. I keep forgetting that Christians are among the most discriminated against in the USA. It must be very hard to thrive in such adversity. I admire your indomitable spirit.

And on a side note I have no idea why black people (because of biblical slavery) or gays (obvious anti gay doctrine) become Christian. I can only think it must be some variant of Stockholm syndrome.
Actually, slavery in the bible was not how you think of it. Being a slave was not a demeaning thing back then. In fact, some slaves loved their masters so much that they stayed with them for life. Also, it wasn't like only black people became slaves. There was not one group of people that became a slave. Being a slave was more like being a butler or a maid. Please don't start shouting at me for saying that, because that is about the closest occupation to being a slave back then. There was nothing wrong with being a slave then. I am not saying the slavery today and of the civil war era was okay, nor was all the slavery back then.
So the eqiquette in the old testimonies about beating your slaves and if they die the next day later is ok? They weren't sold as meat like cattle? Families weren't split up and sold off if they were made after the person became a slave?

Wrong the only difference is it was more class based than racial. It was in no form like indentured servitude or some other contract as you imply. I suggest you read up and provide some evidence because this does not fit what I have read cans would be interesting to see how you justify slavery in the name of religion. It's wrong even if you do it to several nationalities.
Actually that is where you are incorrect. Slaves were only slaves for 7 years and then they were set free, unless they wished to stay with their master. They also were not sold. The only reason they would be forced into slavery is for crimes such as kidnapping. Read the books of the law in the Old Testament.

Re: A discussion about religion

#385
if faith was free of discrimination, i would be much more open to the possibility of believing the teachings of that faith
Faith IS free of discrimination. ALL are able to get into heaven. It says that in the bible too. Your augments against the faith come from the bible yet when the bible gives you arguments FOR the faith. They are ignored.
You know even Satan quoted the bible.

no..


The truth is: You want to live your life how YOU want on YOUR terms. The bible (regardless of how its written) would never change your mind about that. You know it and I know it so lets not play coy.
i have no issue with the bible, except that it was written by people who are naturally biased and discriminatory, myself included. the bible does discriminate against actions that those who wrote the book saw as sinful. there is also much discrimination in the interpretation of he bible

for example, almost every faith group believes their own to be correct, and many believe only people of their own faith go to heaven.


i have read the bible cover to cover 3 times
If you look at the Bible as pretty much all people of the Christian faith do, you would not say it is biased. We would say that the whole bible was written based on divine inspiration. Also, any sun will send you to hell just the same as the next. Someone who just tells one little white lie their whole life but does not believe in Jesus will go to hell just the same as a rapist/murderer/thief/etc. True some sins were punished differently on Earth differently than others, but the eternal consequences are the same for all of them.

Re: A discussion about religion

#386
Actually, slavery in the bible was not how you think of it. Being a slave was not a demeaning thing back then. In fact, some slaves loved their masters so much that they stayed with them for life. Also, it wasn't like only black people became slaves. There was not one group of people that became a slave. Being a slave was more like being a butler or a maid. Please don't start shouting at me for saying that, because that is about the closest occupation to being a slave back then. There was nothing wrong with being a slave then. I am not saying the slavery today and of the civil war era was okay, nor was all the slavery back then.
So the eqiquette in the old testimonies about beating your slaves and if they die the next day later is ok? They weren't sold as meat like cattle? Families weren't split up and sold off if they were made after the person became a slave?

Wrong the only difference is it was more class based than racial. It was in no form like indentured servitude or some other contract as you imply. I suggest you read up and provide some evidence because this does not fit what I have read cans would be interesting to see how you justify slavery in the name of religion. It's wrong even if you do it to several nationalities.
Actually that is where you are incorrect. Slaves were only slaves for 7 years and then they were set free, unless they wished to stay with their master. They also were not sold. The only reason they would be forced into slavery is for crimes such as kidnapping. Read the books of the law in the Old Testament.
Hate to break it to you but you are dead wrong. From Wikipedia:
The Bible contains several references to slavery, which was a common practice in antiquity. The Bible stipulates the treatment of bondsmen, especially in the Old Testament.[1][2][3] There are also references to slavery in the New Testament.[4][5] Male Israelite slaves were to be offered release after seven years of service, with some conditions.[6][7][8] Foreign slaves and their posterity became the perpetual property of the owner's family,[9] except in the case of certain injuries.[10]

The Bible was cited as justification for slavery by defenders.[11][12] Abolitionists have also used text from the New Testament to argue for the manumission of slaves.[13][14][15][16]

So it was only gods personal chosen elite that were kept 7 years. Every other worthless meat sack could be beaten and permenantly crippled to the masters delight, sold, raped and turned into living fornication toys etc... In the bible the only slaves freed were gods chosen elite. God helped murder entire peoples (genocide) as part of this fable. I for one am really glad it's a myth.

Sexual and conjugal slavery
Sexual slavery, or being sold to be a wife, was common in the ancient world. In the Old Testament the taking of multiple wives was condoned[33] and was recorded many times throughout the Old Testament,[34][35] and an Israelite father could sell his unmarried daughters into servitude, with the expectation or understanding that the master or his son would eventually marry her.[citation needed] It is understood by Jewish and Christian commentators that this referred to the sale of a daughter, who "is not arrived to the age of twelve years and a day, and this through poverty."[36]

"And if a man sells his daughter to be a female slave, she shall not go out as the male slaves do. If she does not please her master, who has betrothed her to himself, then he shall let her be redeemed. He shall have no right to sell her to a foreign people, since he has dealt deceitfully with her. And if he has betrothed her to his son, he shall deal with her according to the custom of daughters. If he takes another wife, he shall not diminish her food, her clothing, and her marriage rights."

—Exodus 21 7-11

So please be familiar with your own scripture before posting. Would you sell your own 12 year old daughter to a slave owner to be one of many wives? Or is the morality hopelessly outdated in what is obviously a man made tale.
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Re: A discussion about religion

#387
I apologize, i didn't read the entire conversation, but correct me if im wrong, let me see if understand the line of reasoning that some of you are using. The Bible contains some brutal and violent aspects that dont make sense in todays world, therefore, there can be no God and there can be no highly intelligent life in existence with the capability of creating and engineering the reality we experience right now. Would you agree or disagree with that? Just curious.
Image

Re: A discussion about religion

#388
Actually, slavery in the bible was not how you think of it. Being a slave was not a demeaning thing back then. In fact, some slaves loved their masters so much that they stayed with them for life. Also, it wasn't like only black people became slaves. There was not one group of people that became a slave. Being a slave was more like being a butler or a maid. Please don't start shouting at me for saying that, because that is about the closest occupation to being a slave back then. There was nothing wrong with being a slave then. I am not saying the slavery today and of the civil war era was okay, nor was all the slavery back then.
So the eqiquette in the old testimonies about beating your slaves and if they die the next day later is ok? They weren't sold as meat like cattle? Families weren't split up and sold off if they were made after the person became a slave?

Wrong the only difference is it was more class based than racial. It was in no form like indentured servitude or some other contract as you imply. I suggest you read up and provide some evidence because this does not fit what I have read cans would be interesting to see how you justify slavery in the name of religion. It's wrong even if you do it to several nationalities.
Actually that is where you are incorrect. Slaves were only slaves for 7 years and then they were set free, unless they wished to stay with their master. They also were not sold. The only reason they would be forced into slavery is for crimes such as kidnapping. Read the books of the law in the Old Testament.
Hate to break it to you but you are dead wrong. From Wikipedia:
The Bible contains several references to slavery, which was a common practice in antiquity. The Bible stipulates the treatment of bondsmen, especially in the Old Testament.[1][2][3] There are also references to slavery in the New Testament.[4][5] Male Israelite slaves were to be offered release after seven years of service, with some conditions.[6][7][8] Foreign slaves and their posterity became the perpetual property of the owner's family,[9] except in the case of certain injuries.[10]

The Bible was cited as justification for slavery by defenders.[11][12] Abolitionists have also used text from the New Testament to argue for the manumission of slaves.[13][14][15][16]

So it was only gods personal chosen elite that were kept 7 years. Every other worthless meat sack could be beaten and permenantly crippled to the masters delight, sold, raped and turned into living fornication toys etc... In the bible the only slaves freed were gods chosen elite. God helped murder entire peoples (genocide) as part of this fable. I for one am really glad it's a myth.

Sexual and conjugal slavery
Sexual slavery, or being sold to be a wife, was common in the ancient world. In the Old Testament the taking of multiple wives was condoned[33] and was recorded many times throughout the Old Testament,[34][35] and an Israelite father could sell his unmarried daughters into servitude, with the expectation or understanding that the master or his son would eventually marry her.[citation needed] It is understood by Jewish and Christian commentators that this referred to the sale of a daughter, who "is not arrived to the age of twelve years and a day, and this through poverty."[36]

"And if a man sells his daughter to be a female slave, she shall not go out as the male slaves do. If she does not please her master, who has betrothed her to himself, then he shall let her be redeemed. He shall have no right to sell her to a foreign people, since he has dealt deceitfully with her. And if he has betrothed her to his son, he shall deal with her according to the custom of daughters. If he takes another wife, he shall not diminish her food, her clothing, and her marriage rights."

—Exodus 21 7-11

So please be familiar with your own scripture before posting. Would you sell your own 12 year old daughter to a slave owner to be one of many wives? Or is the morality hopelessly outdated in what is obviously a man made tale.[/quote]
-------------------------------------------------------



Where to start? First of all let me educate you on the times. The land was rules by kings of city-states who were usually quite cruel. On many occasions they conspired together to kill the Hebrews. Rest assured if they had won there would not be a single Hebrew left alive. The Hebrews did what was necessary to survive in that time. War is bloody, and that's what it was, not genocide. Genocide is when the Jews were killed by Hitler.
Slaves. Slavery was much preferable to death. Slaves Israel took from other countries were not treated as horribly as you say. Rape- The price for rape in Israel was death. If it was proven that you raped someone then, you would be killed.
Crippling- if a master crippled a slave he had to pay them quite a hefty fine and let them go free.
"Sex slavery"- It was not sex slavery. It was an arranged marriage, much the same as the arranged marriages of mideval England. It was the norm of the time. Only recently (passed 200 years or so) has 12 been really young to marry. After a girl had been through puberty she would enter an arranged marriage in just about every civilization before maybe the 1700s-1800s. Even today children are being married at that age. Sex slavery is selling a girl into prostitution, not an arranged marriage.
Please, before making more comments like this, read the books of the law in the Old Testament.

Re: A discussion about religion

#389
Glad you acknowledge you were dead wrong about selling slaves and that the 7 year 'fact' was wrong also.

If you believe that slave owners treated these women as equal partners like most all of today's first world societies I have a bridge to sell you. I have news for you: being married in those arrangements was sex slavery - women of the times had absolutely no rights - they were property like animals. They tended to be monogamous in some cases in my opinion because male humans tend to be very territorial of females like many other male animals in nature. Have no doubts that many were forced into performing daily acts to gain money.

Slave owners were only made to set slaves free that they had 'destroyed the eye of' or 'knocked the teeth from' it was standard practice to cripple them at any indescression - preferably in ways that kept thier resale and work value.

Leviticus 19:20 ESV / 5 helpful votes

“If a man lies sexually with a woman who is a slave, assigned to another man and not yet ransomed or given her freedom, a distinction shall be made. They shall not be put to death, because she was not free;

So even if you are raping others slaves you are not killed - because they are substandard human beings.

As far as genocide:
the Bible also contains the horrific account of what can only be described as a "biblical holocaust". For, in order to keep the chosen people apart from and unaffected by the alien beliefs and practices of indigenous or neighbouring peoples, when God commanded his chosen people to conquer the Promised Land, he placed city after city 'under the ban" -which meant that every man, woman and child was to be slaughtered at the point of the sword.

So god ordered and sanctioned the murder if not genocide of innocent women and children whose only crime was to be born In the wrong place (that god created just cause he loves murder) - men doing this is expected - a vengeful hateful spiteful childish god doing this is quite undeniably evil.

This was so horrible that it caused people to say, even hundreds of years ago, that it was just the thinking of the time and not gods morality. So god just lied to and bsd his followers for 1.6 thousand years. It's all good now.

I have read both the old and New Testament and thier interpretations and how people lived at the time which is which is why I am so mollified. So horribly horribly mollified. It has nothing in it other than Bronze Age savagery morality. There is nothing Devine at all in the scriptures - any such so called god is horribly evil for creating such things and it boggles my mind how supposedly intelligent people in modern times could even think of this being of Devine origin.

It takes extreme cherry picking to even get a half way semblance of morality and a rigorous mental effort to forget the brutality.

I'm cherry picking myself because most of the passages are so horrible it will get this thread banned. I could go to page 50 with just quotes condoning sex slavery, slavery and gay hating. Please go ahead and try to justify how this is divine and not Stone Age man made morality. I am very curious.
Last edited by Plus3 on Tue Dec 03, 2013 4:39 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: A discussion about religion

#390
(Please do not hate on me. I use "I" a lot in this writing, please do not confuse this with being self conceited, try to relate to this post. Feedback is appreciated.)

I was raised in an "Old Time Pentecostal" family. I was raised to believe in Christ, and tongues, and impression of the Holy Spirit, and all the things rejected by the world today. These are said to be proof of the Spirit in us.

But growing up in this world, I'm gonna be honest, I am just a scared and confused child. What is happening to us? When did the matters of life start to change my personal beliefs? Was it when I lost my right to fight for my beliefs?
When did Math and Sciences suddenly become a looming cloud in our daily lives? Who needs to know about minuscule actions and things that you cannot even see? Who needs Pythagorean Theorem, when I can whip out a tape measure? And yet these are the matters that consume most of our lives as young people.
When did it become important to learn these things? When did it become who I can be through this or who I need to be rather than who I am? If anyone can explain to me who is ruling my life please tell, because I feel like I am dying inside and there is nothing I can do to fix it. Because if I acted out Id be screwed over. That is what holds me back. I can't do anything because of a risk, because I actually think and care for myself. Is that the world would keep revolving, leaving little old me behind? Is it selfishness or laziness or being scared. I do not even know...
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