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Defense Drop Off?

Posted: Thu Feb 07, 2019 10:05 pm
by Wardon-CH
My clan was having a discussion about tank gear and the topic of Defense came up, obviously. I know quite well about tanking so I don't need a break down of how tanking works.

My question is this, have any of you tested defense to figure out at what point it falls off. By this I mean at what point does adding more defense become redundant and seem to have no effect on evading attacks.

My guess is was once you have 10k unlixed, similar to attack, is when it starts to become redundant in stacking on defense. Any information from people that have actually tested this would be appreciated. I would test it myself but I don't have a bunch of high stacking defense gear.

Re: Defense Drop Off?

Posted: Fri Feb 08, 2019 1:28 am
by Furyion
From random situations over the years, including alot of pvp stuff, I'm almost certain its a ratio.
100 attack/100 defense being 50%, and other numbers working off of that.

So having more is a deminishing return, but if you already deminished your other options even further, theres no reason not to add more.

Re: Defense Drop Off?

Posted: Fri Feb 08, 2019 2:19 pm
by Robert
Wardon-CH wrote:My guess is was once you have 10k unlixed, similar to attack, is when it starts to become redundant in stacking on defense. Any information from people that have actually tested this would be appreciated. I would test it myself but I don't have a bunch of high stacking defense gear.

All of the stats plateau, the only difference is that defence’s plateau is relative to the boss you’re fighting.

It’s worth considering though that there are plenty of internal and external buffs for warriors in the game that greatly boost other stats though which plateau much harder - and high defence works extremely well with a howling wind, rather than against the relative effectiveness unlike a lot of other boosts.

Re: Defense Drop Off?

Posted: Fri Feb 08, 2019 4:52 pm
by Wardon-CH
Robert wrote:All of the stats plateau, the only difference is that defence’s plateau is relative to the boss you’re fighting.

It’s worth considering though that there are plenty of internal and external buffs for warriors in the game that greatly boost other stats though which plateau much harder - and high defence works extremely well with a howling wind, rather than against the relative effectiveness unlike a lot of other boosts.

Defence and attack don't really plateau though, or at least we haven't really hit that point (something I don't really think we ever will). They become redundant at which point you already have enough to serve your purpose. Looking at a tank in general, plateaus don't matter much, as stat wise it's about stacking vit for higher HP regardless of when your skills plateau with vit. Armour of course is the main plateau for a tank.

I'm looking more for a number, we have a general guess with attack being around 10k before looking at different avenues. What would that number be before a tank starts looking at stacking vit and HP over defence.

With BT gear as a tank this isn't really a bother with the fact that your gonna achieve close to the max defence you can get along with vitality and resists from having all this gear.

Re: Defense Drop Off?

Posted: Fri Feb 08, 2019 6:01 pm
by Warsong
Wardon-CH wrote:
Robert wrote:All of the stats plateau, the only difference is that defence’s plateau is relative to the boss you’re fighting.

It’s worth considering though that there are plenty of internal and external buffs for warriors in the game that greatly boost other stats though which plateau much harder - and high defence works extremely well with a howling wind, rather than against the relative effectiveness unlike a lot of other boosts.

Defence and attack don't really plateau though, or at least we haven't really hit that point (something I don't really think we ever will). They become redundant at which point you already have enough to serve your purpose. Looking at a tank in general, plateaus don't matter much, as stat wise it's about stacking vit for higher HP regardless of when your skills plateau with vit. Armour of course is the main plateau for a tank.

I'm looking more for a number, we have a general guess with attack being around 10k before looking at different avenues. What would that number be before a tank starts looking at stacking vit and HP over defence.

With BT gear as a tank this isn't really a bother with the fact that your gonna achieve close to the max defence you can get along with vitality and resists from having all this gear.

Idk I see like almost no difference between when I have 17k attack or when I have 20k attack on Gelebron or Bloodthorn honestly. I'm pretty sure attack does have a plateau.

Re: Defense Drop Off?

Posted: Fri Feb 08, 2019 8:03 pm
by Wardon-CH
Warsong wrote:Idk I see like almost no difference between when I have 17k attack or when I have 20k attack on Gelebron or Bloodthorn honestly. I'm pretty sure attack does have a plateau.

But is that because it actually plateaus or because you have more attack needed for the boss your attacking.

Re: Defense Drop Off?

Posted: Fri Feb 08, 2019 8:30 pm
by Warsong
Wardon-CH wrote:
Warsong wrote:Idk I see like almost no difference between when I have 17k attack or when I have 20k attack on Gelebron or Bloodthorn honestly. I'm pretty sure attack does have a plateau.

But is that because it actually plateaus or because you have more attack needed for the boss your attacking.

I mean if I had enough I wouldn't be missing any attacks :lol:

Re: Defense Drop Off?

Posted: Fri Feb 08, 2019 9:10 pm
by Robert
Wardon-CH wrote:Defence and attack don't really plateau though

They do.

I suggest you look through this users’ posts. Swan reverse engineered most of the formulas in this game.
memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=6295

Have fun looking through the data, it should have all the answers you seek.

Re: Defense Drop Off?

Posted: Sat Feb 09, 2019 3:53 am
by bob the mage
Robert wrote:
Wardon-CH wrote:Defence and attack don't really plateau though

They do.

I suggest you look through this users’ posts. Swan reverse engineered most of the formulas in this game.
memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=6295

Have fun looking through the data, it should have all the answers you seek.

My face when people bring up Swan's formulas :lol:
While they were helpful... when max stats were 1500 and max abilities 4000, Swan's formula's just don't work anymore unfortunately and need to be revamped. Players like Krummy have started the process but it is no where near complete (we have new mage formulas, a new auto attack formula, and he is currently working on new druid formulas with DemDruidsDoe)


As for whether or not attack/defence plateaus, in short yes, in long answer, no.
By the standard game definition, an attribute "plateaus" when it reaches a point where adding more increases the desired secondary attribute by a negligible margin, usually denoted by where investment in another attribute starts to outdo investment in that attribute.
If you put a toon in a vacuum, ie you do the math for a toon outside of boss evasions etc, there is no attack or defense plateau. And from a continued game standpoint, it makes sense for players to act like there is no plateau as otherwise when the next boss comes out they are behind and not ahead.
In a more practical sense in terms of current gear prioritization, your defense and attack attributes do plateau on bosses at around 15k usually, with 10k being the normal sufficient amount.
Because MMO's are a genre of continuous releases and continuations, I don't see a reason to mark a plateau on attributes that don't play into strict formulas. For example, fire magic and focus plateau for a fire mage because there is a strict point where more points in these does negligible work for fire bolt and other fire mage skills due to the formula for fire bolt. Also as energy is pretty negligible for an EG mage and fire magic doesn't really work for accuracy measures, it is easy to say these attributes plateau. Something like focus and attack are boss dependent though, and thus it is up to you as a player to assign a value on how much you need. If your goal is to set yourself up for the long haul, then there really isn't a plateau, but if your goal is to make yourself optimized for the current game play, then the plateau is whatever the max attack/defense of the current EG boss is, in this case BT and Gele.

I hope this helps clear up some of the confusion ;)
As always, if you have any more mathy related questions I'd be happy to answer :P
--Bob
:POP:

Re: Defense Drop Off?

Posted: Sat Feb 09, 2019 9:28 am
by Skerwald
bob the mage wrote:
Robert wrote:
Wardon-CH wrote:Defence and attack don't really plateau though

They do.

I suggest you look through this users’ posts. Swan reverse engineered most of the formulas in this game.
memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=6295

Have fun looking through the data, it should have all the answers you seek.

My face when people bring up Swan's formulas :lol:
While they were helpful... when max stats were 1500 and max abilities 4000, Swan's formula's just don't work anymore unfortunately and need to be revamped. Players like Krummy have started the process but it is no where near complete (we have new mage formulas, a new auto attack formula, and he is currently working on new druid formulas with DemDruidsDoe)


As for whether or not attack/defence plateaus, in short yes, in long answer, no.
By the standard game definition, an attribute "plateaus" when it reaches a point where adding more increases the desired secondary attribute by a negligible margin, usually denoted by where investment in another attribute starts to outdo investment in that attribute.
If you put a toon in a vacuum, ie you do the math for a toon outside of boss evasions etc, there is no attack or defense plateau. And from a continued game standpoint, it makes sense for players to act like there is no plateau as otherwise when the next boss comes out they are behind and not ahead.
In a more practical sense in terms of current gear prioritization, your defense and attack attributes do plateau on bosses at around 15k usually, with 10k being the normal sufficient amount.
Because MMO's are a genre of continuous releases and continuations, I don't see a reason to mark a plateau on attributes that don't play into strict formulas. For example, fire magic and focus plateau for a fire mage because there is a strict point where more points in these does negligible work for fire bolt and other fire mage skills due to the formula for fire bolt. Also as energy is pretty negligible for an EG mage and fire magic doesn't really work for accuracy measures, it is easy to say these attributes plateau. Something like focus and attack are boss dependent though, and thus it is up to you as a player to assign a value on how much you need. If your goal is to set yourself up for the long haul, then there really isn't a plateau, but if your goal is to make yourself optimized for the current game play, then the plateau is whatever the max attack/defense of the current EG boss is, in this case BT and Gele.

I hope this helps clear up some of the confusion ;)
As always, if you have any more mathy related questions I'd be happy to answer :P
--Bob
:POP:

TLDR?