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Re: CG oh T8vsT10

#11
Armo wrote:
Robert wrote:
Just Moon wrote:
You dont think having a server with one clan able to kill bt already kills competition due to the advantage given by bt gear and the drawing effect it has on a servers player base? The same argument for a t8 oh to be able to overcast a t9 or t10 one could be made for dl spite to overcast edl spite and t8 spite but they dont because the lower teir cannot overcast the higher one so why not continue the trend with the new oh?

Exactly, So why do the stronger clans need an insurmountable competitive advantage? It’s possible to beat BT killing clans currently.

It’s also quite illogical to compare Unox to BT... it’s reasonable to expect a clan to achieve 10 for an Unox, but not everyone can be expected to muster 50 for a BT.


Shouldn’t the fact that a clan can kill BT mean they deserve this advantage?

Ye but some people don't wanna lose :lol:
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Re: CG oh T8vsT10

#12
Armo wrote:
Robert wrote:
Just Moon wrote:
You dont think having a server with one clan able to kill bt already kills competition due to the advantage given by bt gear and the drawing effect it has on a servers player base? The same argument for a t8 oh to be able to overcast a t9 or t10 one could be made for dl spite to overcast edl spite and t8 spite but they dont because the lower teir cannot overcast the higher one so why not continue the trend with the new oh?

Exactly, So why do the stronger clans need an insurmountable competitive advantage? It’s possible to beat BT killing clans currently.

It’s also quite illogical to compare Unox to BT... it’s reasonable to expect a clan to achieve 10 for an Unox, but not everyone can be expected to muster 50 for a BT.


Shouldn’t the fact that a clan can kill BT mean they deserve this advantage?

I have to agree with armo. Taking a step back from my position in the game etc, this argument works just as well for as it does against, and as such I don’t see how it can be used in either case.
If BT is such a Herculean task to kill, then clans that are able to recruit enough and are active enough to kill it should be able to maintain full benefits from its drop loot. Reward the clans that have put a lot of effort into recruitment etc and have built up.
On the other hand, it can make it more difficult for newer clans.

Smaller clans will always have unique advantages and disadvantages. The way I see it, no change to the game should be made that intentionally makes small clans less functionable, but at the same time, vertical content needs to appropriately reward players based on the corresponding difficulty. In this pursuit the answer I see is let each tier of dagger be on a boss.
As always I feel that’s DOT in certain areas should be slightly nerfed and that it should be stackable. This change would easily fix this issue I feel, but until then maybe something like this could work.
This is a difficult thing to balance, and I don’t think small clans or large clans will ever agree that the current design is “fair.”


In the end BT is not the final boss, it becomes easier to kill each day, and it should not be the focus for the “final debate.” As of now BT requires close to 40-45 on most servers. These numbers should only go down as more DG sets are pumped out and increased gele drop rates help gear players alongside BT drops as they drop with the increasing kill count.
Just remember that a few years back gele seemed hard and to require large numbers. Now it can be killed no rage with player counts in the 20’s.
Gwydion - Guardian of Relentless
BobsYourUncle 224 Fire Mage

Stubborn 220 Warrior (Tank)

Feel free to pm me about anything or talk to me in game :D
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Re: CG oh T8vsT10

#13
Armo wrote:
Robert wrote:
Just Moon wrote:
You dont think having a server with one clan able to kill bt already kills competition due to the advantage given by bt gear and the drawing effect it has on a servers player base? The same argument for a t8 oh to be able to overcast a t9 or t10 one could be made for dl spite to overcast edl spite and t8 spite but they dont because the lower teir cannot overcast the higher one so why not continue the trend with the new oh?

Exactly, So why do the stronger clans need an insurmountable competitive advantage? It’s possible to beat BT killing clans currently.

It’s also quite illogical to compare Unox to BT... it’s reasonable to expect a clan to achieve 10 for an Unox, but not everyone can be expected to muster 50 for a BT.


Shouldn’t the fact that a clan can kill BT mean they deserve this advantage?

They already have a huge advantage with the jewellery from BT?

I don’t think you fully understand the ramifications of the change.
Firstly, it removes a lot of the skill and organisation in the FFA regarding coordinating rondels. Secondly, 6 T10 rondels that are incontestable is 108K divine damage per minute...

That means in 90 Seconds (2 Rondels, 1 Quiver) the already stronger clan would be able to get 162K divine damage for free, that can’t be stopped. This is equivalent to 54 Divine Strikes from an EDL Weapon, which is equivalently 1 Divine strike every 1.7 Seconds on average between 6 people guarenteed.

The competition would be forced to use rangers, which in 15 seconds with even a capped attack speed of 1.1 seconds would only be able to achieve 124K Divine Damage ASSUMING they hit every single shot without missing, or dying on quiver - and that’s ignoring the obvious skill based advantages that a rogue already has over a ranger.

So to separate into pros and cons:

Pros
Stronger clans get free wins on every boss as a luxury of killing BT

Cons
No competition
Less skill and organisation in FFAs
Every FFA will be just rogues from one clan, and the other clan’s rogues that can’t kill BT all become unviable.

The obvious solution to me is to have them have the same skill and increase the base stats.
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Re: CG oh T8vsT10

#14
Sgt slotter wrote:
Wardon-CH wrote:
Sgt slotter wrote:Any way warriors could at least get a skill description with our offy?

Offhand Axe:
Image


Offhand Shield:
Image

I have both lol can you explain in detail what the axe offy does and maybe put a number next to it?

It's a single hit divine damage skill that does around 3k damage.
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Herne:
Wardon- 220 Warrior
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Re: CG oh T8vsT10

#15
Robert wrote:
Armo wrote:
Robert wrote:Exactly, So why do the stronger clans need an insurmountable competitive advantage? It’s possible to beat BT killing clans currently.

It’s also quite illogical to compare Unox to BT... it’s reasonable to expect a clan to achieve 10 for an Unox, but not everyone can be expected to muster 50 for a BT.


Shouldn’t the fact that a clan can kill BT mean they deserve this advantage?

They already have a huge advantage with the jewellery from BT?

I don’t think you fully understand the ramifications of the change.
Firstly, it removes a lot of the skill and organisation in the FFA regarding coordinating rondels. Secondly, 6 T10 rondels that are incontestable is 108K divine damage per minute...

That means in 90 Seconds (2 Rondels, 1 Quiver) the already stronger clan would be able to get 162K divine damage for free, that can’t be stopped. This is equivalent to 54 Divine Strikes from an EDL Weapon, which is equivalently 1 Divine strike every 1.7 Seconds on average between 6 people guarenteed.

The competition would be forced to use rangers, which in 15 seconds with even a capped attack speed of 1.1 seconds would only be able to achieve 124K Divine Damage ASSUMING they hit every single shot without missing, or dying on quiver - and that’s ignoring the obvious skill based advantages that a rogue already has over a ranger.

So to separate into pros and cons:

Pros
Stronger clans get free wins on every boss as a luxury of killing BT

Cons
No competition
Less skill and organisation in FFAs
Every FFA will be just rogues from one clan, and the other clan’s rogues that can’t kill BT all become unviable.

The obvious solution to me is to have them have the same skill and increase the base stats.

I think the larger issue here is with DOT as a subject on its own right.
It makes sense logically for the skill with stronger skill level to override the lower skill. If you stab someone with a butter knife it’ll hurt em, but if I then jab a spear in right where you put the butter knife, it will override any attempt at damage that came from the butter knife.
This being said and making sense, you are absolutely right that in terms of balancing it would go past a point of no return. The math as you laid it out is plain and simple (I love numbers, so easy lol). We could try and argue with the numbers, but how is that going to do us any good ;)
The issue here, how I see it anyways, is that both sides have a claim to be made as to why they should have the divine damage on the mob or boss. The current game build with regards to DOT leaves only one way as pragmatic, even if it doesn’t sound how it should be. Thus I would still argue that the best way to fix it (as I’ve spelled out prior on other threads), is to make DOT stack. Each skill can be nerfed a varying amount. Skills like barbed shot, incin, and bite barely nerfed if at all. Skills like vines and swarm, nerfed a good deal, but not enough to make them impractical for solo leveling, and then skills like rogue rondel, nerfed a lot, as the main emphasis on the skill is that it does insane damage but can be made null and void, thus some tinkering to the damage would be needed to balance it out not only as a skill but with the other offhand skills and stats.
This way both clans can have their claim at once. The larger clan can utilize what they earned (as Robert said, BT is tough and is not an easy task (clear paraphrasing), so to say it isn’t earned isn’t a fair point (not that anyone did, but I know how these threads tend to get :roll:), while at the same time, it doesn’t force small clans that chose to stay small from not being able to compete over the bosses they wish to compete over. It’s a win win from what I can see, and best of all it make the rogue offhand a little less annoying ;)
Gwydion - Guardian of Relentless
BobsYourUncle 224 Fire Mage

Stubborn 220 Warrior (Tank)

Feel free to pm me about anything or talk to me in game :D
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Shadae wrote:This Bob guy is a guide? Legitimately?

CD Swapping since 2016

Re: CG oh T8vsT10

#17
Armo wrote:The best solution would be to nerf the damage of all the rogue offhands, and let t8/t9/t10 all be applied at the same time.

I like this direction, but I think it would be better if the nerf depends on the number of oh skills are currently being used. If it’s solo then the damage would be high but with each oh skill casted the damage of each would be lowered.
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Re: CG oh T8vsT10

#19
Wardon-CH wrote:
Sgt slotter wrote:
Wardon-CH wrote:Offhand Axe:
Image


Offhand Shield:
Image

I have both lol can you explain in detail what the axe offy does and maybe put a number next to it?

It's a single hit divine damage skill that does around 3k damage.

And sometimes hits instantly and sometimes after 1 or even 2 more skills are cast. Sometimes it hits for over 3k dmg. Every other offy lists actual stats instead of leaving us to guess or go to forums and let someone equally uninformed guess for us. Does anybody at vr have any SOLID info?

Re: CG oh T8vsT10

#20
Robert wrote:
Hiiiiiiii wrote:Rogue T8 oh shouldn’t be able to over cast a t9 or t10 oh of the same kind. I think it’s a waste of seed(s) if they can which atm they do. T10 does more dmg then t8 and when ur killing a boss u wanna kill fast. Pls fix this

This change would kill competition on servers where only one clan can kill BT.


Then we should go back to letting the dl rondel be able to overspite the edl rondel to make it fair for those clans that can't kill unox.
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