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Re: In defense of rolling

#131
ThyraUnited wrote: dkp may seem unfair to newer clannies who won't have as many points to spend/bid as someone who has been in the clan for 2 years so they don't always get the opportunity to get the higher gear (yet someone who has been in clan 2 months outbid others yesterday for godly cuff of smiting from the reset Hrung we won).


There are many forms of dkp, and the ones you're describing - inflation and collusion are flaws of bidding and traditional systems. Clans should be willing to implement tweaks to avoid this if you want dkp to be fair for everyone, new and old members alike.
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Re: In defense of rolling

#132
Aileron wrote:
ThyraUnited wrote: dkp may seem unfair to newer clannies who won't have as many points to spend/bid as someone who has been in the clan for 2 years so they don't always get the opportunity to get the higher gear (yet someone who has been in clan 2 months outbid others yesterday for godly cuff of smiting from the reset Hrung we won).


There are many forms of dkp, and the ones you're describing - inflation and collusion are flaws of bidding and traditional systems. Clans should be willing to implement tweaks to avoid this if you want dkp to be fair for everyone, new and old members alike.

Loot distribution is all about how much time you want to put into making it fair. If you don't want to put any time into it, you roll. If you want it to be ultra fair, you need to put a lot of time into it like Avalon. Resurgence puts a lot of time into it, but not as much as Avalon and therefore their DKP is more fair than ours.
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Re: In defense of rolling

#133
Gabee wrote:Free world like epona, multi clan, can still make a system for everybody that can be sustained, like UN is handling a large group of countries. It doesn't mean you will rely on one person to do all the work, but a cooperation of all clan leaders. But I guess you don't trust each other to make a fair system. So easy way out is rolling.

How could dkp or loot council ever work in epona? Clans are being created and disbanded constantly here, and wouldn't the clan leaders just vote for their own members to get geared? How could we keep tabs on who has what gear? Whose been to what bosses? Theres no way either could work.
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Re: In defense of rolling

#135
Why even a need to defend rolling in the first place? if that's what epona is happy doing and it's players enjoy it then good for epona.. If another world uses any kind of point system and they enjoy it good for them.. Tbh the premise of this thread sounds like a advertisement to get ppl to transfer to epona.. Which isn't a bad idea but who r u gonna get to go? Most likely the scammers and undesirables who need to escape Dom clan servers.

Re: In defense of rolling

#136
Bigdiesel wrote:Why even a need to defend rolling in the first place? if that's what epona is happy doing and it's players enjoy it then good for epona.. If another world uses any kind of point system and they enjoy it good for them.. Tbh the premise of this thread sounds like a advertisement to get ppl to transfer to epona.. Which isn't a bad idea but who r u gonna get to go? Most likely the scammers and undesirables who need to escape Dom clan servers.


Agreed, every server is unique with it's own system. No need to put one system on a higher standard then others.
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Re: In defense of rolling

#138
Bigdiesel wrote:Why even a need to defend rolling in the first place? if that's what epona is happy doing and it's players enjoy it then good for epona.. If another world uses any kind of point system and they enjoy it good for them.. Tbh the premise of this thread sounds like a advertisement to get ppl to transfer to epona..

Most people dismiss rolling as a stupid way to distribute drops. I argue that in specific circumstances (players in different clans/clanless regularly cooperate), it's not simply a legitimate way to distribute, but also a necessity because DKP is not feasible server wide. If you're asking why rolling needs defending at all, then hopefully you have accepted it as a legitimate distribution method (in some cases).

My intent is to explain a success story to give other servers an alternative as they evolve. Most worlds are controlled by a dominant clan and are likely to stay that way unless OTM pushes out a major change, like creation of separate instances/dungeons.

However, some servers have multiple clans of somewhat equal strength. They either compete for locks, or agree to boss rotations. The point of the post is to show that server wide rolling is a viable alternative for these worlds. You attend more bosses, you get more rolls, and yes there's obviously chance, but you can't claim DKP is 100% guaranteed either. If a shadow bow drops from necro, and you're a ranger with 10k points, whether you get it and/or how high the bid goes is based on who attends (plus how many points they have)—those elements are out of your control. Unless you're talking about Avalon's system, which supposedly fixes that, although I'm not sure exactly how.

Bigdiesel wrote:Which isn't a bad idea but who r u gonna get to go? Most likely the scammers and undesirables who need to escape Dom clan servers.

No offense but this is mainly why I dislike dominant clan systems. People in the dominant clan usually assume that everyone not in their clan is a "scammer or undesirable." People in the rival clans usually assume that the dominant clan is full of assholes.

Yes, you have every right to dislike specific players, but having a bad opinion of a whole clan because a few people wronged you is the definition of prejudice. Acting out against that clan because of prejudice is the definition of discrimination. If clans were countries, and say the dominant country ("superpower") was the United States (I know plenty may disagree with this, just use it as a hypothetical though), and you were an American, would hate all Russian/Asian/Indian/European/African/Australian/Latino countries and their people? Even if a Chinese person robbed you, would you suddenly hate all billion plus Chinese people for that?

I remember dominant players griefing a whole clan whenever a player in that clan "illegally purchased" raid loot from an ex-dominant-clan player. Griefing included trash talk, dragging adds on bosses, ruining lixes, killing in arena, etc. Just because you can do something doesn't mean it's right. Just because you're powerful doesn't mean you can't be an arse too. Just because no one can stop you doesn't mean you shouldn't be civilized. It's like murdering an entire village because a villager stole bread from your city.

The other thing is that hate can escalate really fast in a dominant system. Clan A and B both show up to Sreng. A outlocks B. Members in B are unhappy they got denied access to loot, so they start trash talking. A trash talks back. Get trash talked often and you'll start hating your rival. Get outlocked at every boss and even Mother Teresa would eventually hate the dominant clan a little bit, unless you joined them. I believe this was how Nueee went from being an outspoken critic of Resurgence and then magically did a 180 and became the quietest person I know.

Crim is probably going to say I'm bashing again so I'll just say this. This is a criticism of what tends to happen more in dominant clan systems, not a criticism of any one clan or a statement of what always happens. I have met my fair share of people with good sportsmanship who wouldn't go for the low blows or petty insults no matter how many times they were outlocked or insulted by their opponents. And I am sure there are quite a few dominant clan players that play fair and don't abuse their power. But it's basic human psychology that when you pit Clan A, B, C, etc against each other, and at every boss only one clan leaves with the goods, there's bound to be some animosity (look up group bias, Robber's Cave, or realistic conflict theory).

/longasspostend

Re: In defense of rolling

#139
Swan wrote:
Bigdiesel wrote:Why even a need to defend rolling in the first place? if that's what epona is happy doing and it's players enjoy it then good for epona.. If another world uses any kind of point system and they enjoy it good for them.. Tbh the premise of this thread sounds like a advertisement to get ppl to transfer to epona..

Most people dismiss rolling as a stupid way to distribute drops. I argue that in specific circumstances (players in different clans/clanless regularly cooperate), it's not simply a legitimate way to distribute, but also a necessity because DKP is not feasible server wide. If you're asking why rolling needs defending at all, then hopefully you have accepted it as a legitimate distribution method (in some cases).

My intent is to explain a success story to give other servers an alternative as they evolve. Most worlds are controlled by a dominant clan and are likely to stay that way unless OTM pushes out a major change, like creation of separate instances/dungeons.

However, some servers have multiple clans of somewhat equal strength. They either compete for locks, or agree to boss rotations. The point of the post is to show that server wide rolling is a viable alternative for these worlds. You attend more bosses, you get more rolls, and yes there's obviously chance, but you can't claim DKP is 100% guaranteed either. If a shadow bow drops from necro, and you're a ranger with 10k points, whether you get it and/or how high the bid goes is based on who attends (plus how many points they have)—those elements are out of your control. Unless you're talking about Avalon's system, which supposedly fixes that, although I'm not sure exactly how.

Bigdiesel wrote:Which isn't a bad idea but who r u gonna get to go? Most likely the scammers and undesirables who need to escape Dom clan servers.

No offense but this is mainly why I dislike dominant clan systems. People in the dominant clan usually assume that everyone not in their clan is a "scammer or undesirable." People in the rival clans usually assume that the dominant clan is full of assholes.

Yes, you have every right to dislike specific players, but having a bad opinion of a whole clan because a few people wronged you is the definition of prejudice. Acting out against that clan because of prejudice is the definition of discrimination. If clans were countries, and say the dominant country ("superpower") was the United States (I know plenty may disagree with this, just use it as a hypothetical though), and you were an American, would hate all Russian/Asian/Indian/European/African/Australian/Latino countries and their people? Even if a Chinese person robbed you, would you suddenly hate all billion plus Chinese people for that?

I remember dominant players griefing a whole clan whenever a player in that clan "illegally purchased" raid loot from an ex-dominant-clan player. Griefing included trash talk, dragging adds on bosses, ruining lixes, killing in arena, etc. Just because you can do something doesn't mean it's right. Just because you're powerful doesn't mean you can't be an arse too. Just because no one can stop you doesn't mean you shouldn't be civilized. It's like murdering an entire village because a villager stole bread from your city.

The other thing is that hate can escalate really fast in a dominant system. Clan A and B both show up to Sreng. A outlocks B. Members in B are unhappy they got denied access to loot, so they start trash talking. A trash talks back. Get trash talked often and you'll start hating your rival. Get outlocked at every boss and even Mother Teresa would eventually hate the dominant clan a little bit, unless you joined them. I believe this was how Nueee went from being an outspoken critic of Resurgence and then magically did a 180 and became the quietest person I know.

Crim is probably going to say I'm bashing again so I'll just say this. This is a criticism of what tends to happen more in dominant clan systems, not a criticism of any one clan or a statement of what always happens. I have met my fair share of people with good sportsmanship who wouldn't go for the low blows or petty insults no matter how many times they were outlocked or insulted by their opponents. And I am sure there are quite a few dominant clan players that play fair and don't abuse their power. But it's basic human psychology that when you pit Clan A, B, C, etc against each other, and at every boss only one clan leaves with the goods, there's bound to be some animosity (look up group bias, Robber's Cave, or realistic conflict theory).

/longasspostend

Not gonna answer this whole thing cause I agree it's a long ass post ;)

But your not entirely correct saying that dominate clans judge everyone in a lessor clan unfairly... Case in point we just had a level 220 warrior move from unit to resurgence now if I had already labeled him a scammer or undesirable would have we accepted him ofc not.. It's got more to do with the behavior of the individual then the clan that they are in imo anyways. Now I'm speaking for myself because I don't know or care what goes on in other worlds tbh.. Oh and btw this same warrior a fresh 1 and a 1/2 months into being in resurgnece just won a dark solar flames axe from gelebron so yes new players with minimal dkp can get access to awesome drops..

Again I'm sure rolling is great for epona and I'm happy u guys have a system that works but one thing I'll dissagree with is generalizing and demonizing dominate clans and making them out to be bullies.. We r all here to play a game bottom line :)

Re: In defense of rolling

#140
+1
We r all here to play a game bottom line :)

Thank you Sir :)

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